Thursday, February 12, 2015
The Minsk "Agreement"
by Alexander Mercouris
Already there is debate about who has "won" and who has "lost" in the Minsk talks.
The short answer is that as the German foreign minister Steinmeier correctly said there is no breakthrough but the Russians and the NAF have made progress.
One point needs to be explained or reiterated (since I have explained it already and many times).
The agreement does not make provision for federalisation or autonomy for the Donbass but still only refers to the grant of a law according the Donbass temporary special status within the Ukraine.
There could not be an agreement for federalisation out of the Minsk negotiations because they are primarily a summit meeting of five powers - Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, German and France. The Russians have always insisted that this is an internal conflict and civil war within the Ukraine and between Ukrainians and it is for the Ukrainians and them alone to resolve their internal differences between them through negotiations.
Given that this is Russia's stance, Russia and the other powers cannot impose a federalisation scheme on the Ukrainians and they have not - at least overtly - sought to do so. What the stated objective of the Minsk talks is - at least from the Russian point of view - is to set up conditions and a process for the constitutional negotiations that the Russians have been pushing for (and which were supposedly agreed on 21st February 2014 and on 17th April 2014 and 5th September 2014) to take place.
The Russians have been insisting on these negotiations since the February coup. The Russians are not publicly pre-ordaining the outcome of those negotiations because were they to do so they would not be negotiations at all. Whatever a negotiation is, it is by definition not something whose outcome is preordained.
If the Russians sought to preordain the outcome of the negotiations by insisting on federalisation as the outcome they would be imposing their views on the parties and would be admitting that they are a party to the conflict, which is what they have consistently said they are not. They would in effect be doing what the US has tried to do in the Syrian conflict, which is insist on an outcome to negotiations (Assad's resignation) before negotiations even take place. The Russians have always opposed this sort of behaviour and they are being consistent in not openly adopting it now.
Depending on what the parties agree between them, the negotiations could in theory result in decentralisation, federalisation, a confederation or even outright independence for the Donbass (the Russians floated that idea as a serious possibility in the summer). The latter is not by the way contrary to the reaffirmation of respect or even support for the Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity that we saw in the statement today. If the internal parties to the conflict were to decide on a formal partition as the solution to the Ukraine's conflict, then international actors like Russia could recognise it without calling into question their previous declared support for the Ukraine's territorial integrity, as they previously did when Czechoslovakia split up.
In reality everybody knows that the Russians' preferred option is federalisation and the Europeans are now edging towards that solution. Whether it is a viable solution is another matter.
Once this key point is understood everything else starts to fall into place.
Last spring and summer the Russians sought a ceasefire so the constitutional negotiations could begin. The Europeans are now also demanding a ceasefire (they were less keen on the idea last spring and summer). There is now therefore an agreement for a ceasefire.
Back in August the Russians demanded the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the Donbass. There is now an agreement for the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the Donbass.
If that happens it will be a major weakening of the Junta's position in the Donbass because it is the Junta whose military has the big preponderance in heavy weapons. If the opposing sides are left with light infantry forces, the advantage on the ground will pass decisively to the NAF.
The political machinery that was supposed to have been agreed in Minsk on 5th September 2014 to create the conditions for the constitutional elections is being revived. Thus there is to be a law of special status for the Donbass pending the constitutional negotiations to clarify its current legal status and provide legal mechanisms for its internal administration by the NAF (Ukraine passed one previously and then reneged on it), more elections etc.
There is a new provision, which is the first indications of some sort of timeline for this process with the constitutional negotiations supposed to have been concluded by the end of the year.
There are also some ideas for a beefed up monitoring process via the OSCE.
Will any of this happen? Highly doubtful I would say. Consider what happened after the Minsk process of 5th September 2014. The Junta did not withdraw its heavy weapons. It did not retreat to the agreed boundary line. It imposed an economic blockade on the Donbass (it is now obliged to lift it). It rescinded the law on the Donbass's special status. It reinforced its army and in January it attempted to renew its offensive.
Is there any more prospect of this process succeeding than did the one that was agreed in Minsk in September?
The big difference between this process and the previous process is that the Europeans are now formally involved. Its success or failure ultimately depends on whether the Europeans are going to insist on the Junta fulfilling its obligations. They spectacularly failed to do so before and I have to say I think it is very unlikely they will do so now. If the Europeans fail to insist on the Junta fulfilling its obligations then the process will unravel as the previous Minsk process did and with the balance of advantage continuing to shift every day on the ground towards the NAF we will see a further renewal of the fighting and a further NAF advance in the spring.
In the meantime control of the border, disarmament of "illegal armed groups" etc are now overtly linked to the successful conclusion of the constitutional negotiations, which is supposed to happen before the end of the year. Of course if the constitutional negotiations succeed, then when all these things happen we will have a different Ukraine from the one we have now. At that point the control of border posts etc will be in the hands of differently constituted authorities from those that exist today.
Will those negotiations actually happen? Will they succeed if they do? I doubt it. The Junta will resist them tooth and nail if only because those negotiations put in jeopardy the whole Maidan project and by their mere fact call into question the Junta's legitimacy.
It depends in the end on what the Europeans do. This has been true of the conflict from the start.
That it depends on what the Europeans do is in itself a good reason to doubt this process will succeed. The probability is more conflict down the road but in the meantime Poroshenko's admission that there is "no good news for the Ukraine" from this process tells us who is winning.
Already there is debate about who has "won" and who has "lost" in the Minsk talks.
The short answer is that as the German foreign minister Steinmeier correctly said there is no breakthrough but the Russians and the NAF have made progress.
One point needs to be explained or reiterated (since I have explained it already and many times).
The agreement does not make provision for federalisation or autonomy for the Donbass but still only refers to the grant of a law according the Donbass temporary special status within the Ukraine.
There could not be an agreement for federalisation out of the Minsk negotiations because they are primarily a summit meeting of five powers - Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, German and France. The Russians have always insisted that this is an internal conflict and civil war within the Ukraine and between Ukrainians and it is for the Ukrainians and them alone to resolve their internal differences between them through negotiations.
Given that this is Russia's stance, Russia and the other powers cannot impose a federalisation scheme on the Ukrainians and they have not - at least overtly - sought to do so. What the stated objective of the Minsk talks is - at least from the Russian point of view - is to set up conditions and a process for the constitutional negotiations that the Russians have been pushing for (and which were supposedly agreed on 21st February 2014 and on 17th April 2014 and 5th September 2014) to take place.
The Russians have been insisting on these negotiations since the February coup. The Russians are not publicly pre-ordaining the outcome of those negotiations because were they to do so they would not be negotiations at all. Whatever a negotiation is, it is by definition not something whose outcome is preordained.
If the Russians sought to preordain the outcome of the negotiations by insisting on federalisation as the outcome they would be imposing their views on the parties and would be admitting that they are a party to the conflict, which is what they have consistently said they are not. They would in effect be doing what the US has tried to do in the Syrian conflict, which is insist on an outcome to negotiations (Assad's resignation) before negotiations even take place. The Russians have always opposed this sort of behaviour and they are being consistent in not openly adopting it now.
Depending on what the parties agree between them, the negotiations could in theory result in decentralisation, federalisation, a confederation or even outright independence for the Donbass (the Russians floated that idea as a serious possibility in the summer). The latter is not by the way contrary to the reaffirmation of respect or even support for the Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity that we saw in the statement today. If the internal parties to the conflict were to decide on a formal partition as the solution to the Ukraine's conflict, then international actors like Russia could recognise it without calling into question their previous declared support for the Ukraine's territorial integrity, as they previously did when Czechoslovakia split up.
In reality everybody knows that the Russians' preferred option is federalisation and the Europeans are now edging towards that solution. Whether it is a viable solution is another matter.
Once this key point is understood everything else starts to fall into place.
Last spring and summer the Russians sought a ceasefire so the constitutional negotiations could begin. The Europeans are now also demanding a ceasefire (they were less keen on the idea last spring and summer). There is now therefore an agreement for a ceasefire.
Back in August the Russians demanded the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the Donbass. There is now an agreement for the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the Donbass.
If that happens it will be a major weakening of the Junta's position in the Donbass because it is the Junta whose military has the big preponderance in heavy weapons. If the opposing sides are left with light infantry forces, the advantage on the ground will pass decisively to the NAF.
The political machinery that was supposed to have been agreed in Minsk on 5th September 2014 to create the conditions for the constitutional elections is being revived. Thus there is to be a law of special status for the Donbass pending the constitutional negotiations to clarify its current legal status and provide legal mechanisms for its internal administration by the NAF (Ukraine passed one previously and then reneged on it), more elections etc.
There is a new provision, which is the first indications of some sort of timeline for this process with the constitutional negotiations supposed to have been concluded by the end of the year.
There are also some ideas for a beefed up monitoring process via the OSCE.
Will any of this happen? Highly doubtful I would say. Consider what happened after the Minsk process of 5th September 2014. The Junta did not withdraw its heavy weapons. It did not retreat to the agreed boundary line. It imposed an economic blockade on the Donbass (it is now obliged to lift it). It rescinded the law on the Donbass's special status. It reinforced its army and in January it attempted to renew its offensive.
Is there any more prospect of this process succeeding than did the one that was agreed in Minsk in September?
The big difference between this process and the previous process is that the Europeans are now formally involved. Its success or failure ultimately depends on whether the Europeans are going to insist on the Junta fulfilling its obligations. They spectacularly failed to do so before and I have to say I think it is very unlikely they will do so now. If the Europeans fail to insist on the Junta fulfilling its obligations then the process will unravel as the previous Minsk process did and with the balance of advantage continuing to shift every day on the ground towards the NAF we will see a further renewal of the fighting and a further NAF advance in the spring.
In the meantime control of the border, disarmament of "illegal armed groups" etc are now overtly linked to the successful conclusion of the constitutional negotiations, which is supposed to happen before the end of the year. Of course if the constitutional negotiations succeed, then when all these things happen we will have a different Ukraine from the one we have now. At that point the control of border posts etc will be in the hands of differently constituted authorities from those that exist today.
Will those negotiations actually happen? Will they succeed if they do? I doubt it. The Junta will resist them tooth and nail if only because those negotiations put in jeopardy the whole Maidan project and by their mere fact call into question the Junta's legitimacy.
It depends in the end on what the Europeans do. This has been true of the conflict from the start.
That it depends on what the Europeans do is in itself a good reason to doubt this process will succeed. The probability is more conflict down the road but in the meantime Poroshenko's admission that there is "no good news for the Ukraine" from this process tells us who is winning.
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172 comments:
"The big difference between this process and the previous process is that the Europeans are now formally involved."
Oh you mean like the agreement with Yanukovitch in February 2014?
The speed with which this agreement was pushed make me think that everybody has to win, even though at the surface NAF benefits the most. IMF just announced they are ready to dump 40bil onto Ukraine. I guess Saker was predicting not so long ago that the economy will suffer. The Russian do not get paid either for their gas, so a lot of this lifeline from IMF will be directed to Russia in a time when they need the $ so bad. The NAF has more time for training the new recruits and strengthening their new positions while the Ukranians can think more and find out by themselves about the horrors of this last adventure the do a anti-Maidan with no need for outside help. The pain of mothers and wifes losing their sons and husbands will be stronger than pain from cold and hunger. So, Junta, does has a chance to get more time for a last effort or a nice escape. Sorry for the Ukrainians suffering through all this ordeal.
If this is true, Obama sabotaged Minsk while the talks took place.
http://novorus.info/news/policy/33554-postanovlenie-verhovnoy-rady-ob-otkaze-prezidenta-ukrainy-ot-vypolneniya-konstitucionnyh-polnomochiy.html
@RodP13
I think that the Europeans understand that if they allow this agreement to fail, then the US will step in (barge in) and take over and the Europeans will have lost their opportunity to disengage themselves from the total control imposed by the US. If they let this fail they may as well just lie down and let the US steamroller roll over them.
Srdja Trifkovic has no faith in any European guarantees, that lack American leadership/authorship. See https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/report-from-moscow-doomed-ukraine-plan/ .
mercouris always teaches me of the bases and details of pending actions and outcomes. What it is and the shadowy possibilities therefrom.
but i really wonder why and how mercouris doesn´t even touch the goals, the role, the interests and the past deeds by the US embassy and personnel in Kiev.
Good points by Mercouris
Part 1
As I see it.....
Someone said there are three types of people: #1) Those that see #2) Those that will see when shown and #3) Those that will never see.
Well, I figure that there are some nuances in this statement. There can be subsets in each of these three types of people. There are those who see (#1) but either don't give a shit (are too lazy to do or say anything) or those that cynically think that the person or persons who brought this to their attention either don't matter or can't do anything about it (the sociopath/psychopath subset of those that see).
Those that see when shown (#2) need to be addressed more closely. They can be rationally brought to stage #1. An aside: This becomes a problem when entities try to contain a situation (during the showing for #2 and #3 for that matter), with the view (hope) that the groups being contained will see the errors of their ways and come to an accommodation. You contain them (the situation), lead the group to the edge of the abyss and give them a good long hard look. Unfortunately, many people don't see that well and have the intelligence and attention span of a hamster (the EU comes to mind). Furthermore, there is always some vested group within those being led to the abyss that wishes (needs) to blame the trip to the abyss (and those who did the leading/containing) not the abyss (consequences of innumerable stupid actions). Those seeking to do the blaming are usually the ones who had a great deal to do with causing the problem to start with. End of this aside. Unfortunately, type #2 can still break down into the two subsets of #1. But if they have been willing to be shown, then they likely exhibit less sociopath/psychopath traits. There is hope.
Those that will never see (#3) are generally hopeless but even there trying to make them see may, hopefully, bring them to the point where they say”I don't know what the Hell is going on, what you're talking about, so I'm staying the fuck out of it”. Basically, just leave me the fuck alone. Honest and ignorant but knows it. This doesn't stop the braying jackass politicians and media from saying they represent these people but basically for intelligent people...... “Who Cares?”.
End of Part 1
Part 2
Now Russia (Putin, Lavrov etc.) have been trying to inform (I'm being diplomatic here) these sets of people (mostly in Europe but this also applies to the rest of the world as well). And with good reason. If this all goes to shit and full blown war does come then Russia wants to fight the true enemy (as much as possible) and split off the uninformed and the ignorant. It also helps for your moral position that we tried everything and this will provide rationale for your actions to all but the sociopaths and psychopaths. This is the splitting of the useful idiots and buffoons from the sociopaths and psychopaths.
This is why I disagree (partially but it is more of timing, I guess in a way) with Strelkov. I understand Strelkov wants to kick ass but there is a limit to how many asses you can kick. Better to limit your ass kicking to people who really deserve it. Even if some of the kickees are less deserving, they may be better disposed to being dealt with later diplomatically without more military ass kicking being necessary.
Now there may came a time (perhaps very shortly) that the use of a two by four will be needed. As the farmer said in regards to the bull when he had to hit him between the eyes with the two by four........ first, you have to get their attention. The US (and the EU in whole or in part) needs to be led to the edge of the abyss and given a good long hard look. I think Russia generally has the attention of the EU. The US (includes Britain and Canada) may need the use of the two by four and as far as I'm concerned the aim of the two by four should be a great deal lower in the anatomy. But likely the two by four will be used in Debaltsevo, Kramatorsk and Mariopul, etc.
And so, this arm chair strategist wannabe gets to watch the show and fervently hopes that reason will prevail. Sadly, for Ukrainians, they and their loved ones are in the meat grinder mixed in with some of the Nazi crap.
The withdrawal part is an improvement on Minsk 1. There are clear and sensible distances for the various types of artillery, and there is a TIME for when it has to be finished. It is true 14 days allows a lot of damage, but it also means they can't put it off forever, like last time.
All the elections/border/special status nonsense is that -- nonsense. Kiev won't do the right thing on any of it, but at least for the first time they have agreed to do it with NEGOTIATION. If nothing else, it's a chance for Novorossiya to troll them occasionally, demanding talks about this or that, knowing Kiev won't be in it.
An excellent item is the withdrawal of foreign mercenaries and armaments. Poroshenko probably think this means Russian troops and gear. But it applies just as well to NATO type of items and US advisers etc. Even if the existence of these is denied, it should STOP FRESH DELIVERIES, effectively stopping USA efforts at providing offensive armaments (not needed anyway, there's a ceasefire on, right, guys?)
What I find encouraging is the accompanying document that talks about a a common humanitarian and economic space from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and that RF concerns regarding the EU-Ukraine agreement should be adressed. I get the feeling that Putin and Lavrov may have been successful in converting Merkel and Hollande to their "eurasian vision" of a Europe that includes Russia, rather than the euroatlantic vision where Russia is the enemy. If this is the case, then everything else will fall into place. There is a different tone coming from France and Germany.
Another thing, France and Germany have been wanting to reduce sanctions (ie their citizens and business have been demanding this). So have the smaller countries. This agreement gives them a chance to do this, which is a step out from under the USA boot. I believe they may have had a lesson in geography, demonstrating who would in the path of the blowback, if the US provokes a real war with Russia. This seems clear to me, from the joint announcement.
Beware the Ides of February.....
So Saker, you didn't say anything about the real main aggressor - Unites States of America. Who is NATO? American militia force. For EU there is one question: are you still living in Pax America illusion or do you join multilateral world where so called west is just one player among others and not master race (Herrenvolk) of mankind.
I think you should maybe not be so impatient to those who - as you sneeringly put it - debate who 'won or lost' or need 'reiterations'. On the face of it, this new deal looks like a deal where Putin has shoved Donbass under the bus. Your explanation does make it look a bit different and that's good. The key seems to be leverage. If the new agreement hasn't taken away the leverage of the republics', then it sounds a much better agreement. So good job by you. No need to be impatient about explaining. Explaining is important. And who 'won' or 'lost' in Ukraine matters a lot, and not just to Ukraine. What is at stake is whether rulers of Nato and the US get to dictate to the rest of the world. That matters, or should matter, to everyone in the world. They think they can dictate a certain way of life to everyone in the world, and the changes their stooges are pushing through in Ukraine show how comprehensive this is - from land use (agriculture), to healthcare (privatization), from soup to nuts. It's not just about certain aspects of geopolitics.
The only good news for (a select few) Ukrainians is that a new bunch of billions is coming from the IMF into the black hole of their pockets.
Thank you! Your observations were very clearly demonstrated and agree with all that I have been reading about this situation, as well as a basic comprehension of the real world! Thank you!
Thank you for this enlightening masterpiece, Alexander Mercouris. The exceptionally competent and consistent political leadership exercised by Russia all along comes out very clearly.
That said, I share you skepticism on the outcome. Based on past experience, for the world to have to rely on Europe to resist the Empire and on the strength of its backbone doing so is, I believe, hopeless. In actual fact, Europe is and remains an integral part of the Empire; that is not about to change anytime soon, I'm afraid. Let us therefore continue to recognize a pitiful serf when we see one...
-- Louis Robert
I find it hard to believe that Novorossiya would agree to have ukie Nazi officials controlling its borders to Russia.
That would effectively turn Novorossiya into a landlocked Transdnistria or Gaza situation around which the Nazi freaks, with US/israeli help of course, could start digging moats, put up barbed wire, mine fields and gun-turrets.
A kind of final solution way of dealing with people you call untermenschen or subhumans, bugs and rats.
That is not going to happen, no way.
The Minsk agreement is a world-historic triumph for Putin. He got everything he wanted and much more. NATO expansion is stopped. NATO itself is eviscerated, and US domination of western Europe is ended. Now Germany, with assistance from France, will run western Europe.
Putin's dream of a Eurasian community from Lisbon to Vladivostok is still alive.
Neither the Ukies nor the separatists will like the agreement, but it will be imposed by the major powers.,
Since the meeting was a big nothing. Lets get to the nitty gritty gossips..
Putin was calm and confident. He does produce an impression, he makes you think of his power.
I could notice that Poroshenko was very lost and sad, all gray and with baggy eyes.
Hollande looked as if he was painted brown all over. He was powdery and very stately.
Merkel looked like a business lady, quite ok.
Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko went to welcome his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko. They hugged as long-time friends..
they have come to visit the "dictator," whose country that he rules for many years lives under sanctions.
Belarusian security service started walking among the journalists, telling us all in a very friendly fashion that Belarus was a peace-loving country. They asked all guests in the room to be polite and friendly to others.
the last of the previous German leaders, who had paid a visit to Belarus, was Hitler.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/12-02-2015/129807-minsk_meeting-0/
Osama was busy playing flight simulator annihilator so was a no show.
Putin just sold Novorossians out. How could there be any negotiations when one party which participate in the conflict is present, whereas the other party in the conflict is not. Has Putin been elected to represent Novorossians, hm? No. So what is he doing there? And if he, as a head of RF wanted to participate in that peace negotiations, he should have brought Novorossians representatives along. Such stupidity.
But what I would want to know personally, is how is it that you Russians would so stand up to the Americans, but when European whores come, you shrink like a granny's pussy? It's not just this example alone, every time European whores show up, Russians dwindle. You so hold European scum in high regard that you would prostitute yourself in front of that scum, but would easily battle Americanos every time around, hm? Such stupidity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zht9O1onJMA
Donbass representatives respond to agreement
As usual a calm and measured comment by Alexander Mercouris.
In my view it is a misunderstanding that Hollande-Merkel and Obama are of a differing opinion on this matter. I think the split is not between the US and Europe, but between warmongers and non-warmongers on each side of the Atlantic. It does not take a genius to understand, that in Germany for instance, the media is largely controlled by warmongers. Reading the aggressive drivel spewed in German papers,online media and transmitted via tv into ordinary people's home confirms this. It is quite clear that in Germany - the country where I live and where I was born - there is no overwhelming support for warmongering. Merkel, being the ever populist she has always been, sensed that. Hence her action, however, openly and cerefully ccordinated with Obama. Her visit to Washington last Monday speaks clearly to this.
Noteworthy, however, is the fact that Europeans have taken matters into their own hands, albeit with the approval of the White House. If Putin is the strategic chess player I think he is, he will not let this first sign of European independence from the US pass by. He will do everything in his power to create a feeling with the people of Europe that Russia can be a trusted and trustworthy partner for many things, including a joint European security arrangement.
If he reads the signs correctly and if he does listen to European people, he will know that the door is wide open. Europeans are fed up with warmongers - be they European or American. Europeans are (rightly?) worried, that the time in the USA after Obama will be worse. Obama is a bystander, who is not particularly interested in foreign politics. He ist not an aggressor. Circles in Washington are, not the President himself. The next President might be much more aggressive. The "selection committe" which selects presidential candidates will make sure of that.
That gives a window of two years, during which much can be accomplished. Considering this, probably Putin will be a disappointment for the people in the Donbass. They would like more suppport for their quest for independence. I believe Putin is too much of a strategist, to have his focus only on that matter.
I think the warmongers understand very well, that there is a clear and present danger for Europe to get a taste of freedom - more than today's - from the US. They will fight this with everything they have. Indeed it is therefore very important how strongly Hollande and Merkel are committed to this cause.
I have little hope for Germany in this regard. Merkel acted out of populism, not from conviction. She is a strong believer in the goodness of the Atlantic partnership. Moreover, there is noone in Germany who can challenge her. There is no German political opposition to speak of. In addition I think she and Putin do not have a very good chemistry.
The situation is quite different in France. All major political leaders in France are fed up with the US leadership. Hollande was reluctant at first. However, when Sarkozy and Marine Le Pen came out in support for a European dance with the Russians, he quickly seized the opportunity. I think it was he, who pushed Merkel.
In this respect I believe the key for a new and more independent Europe (from US supremacy) lies in Paris.
If my "big picture" analysis is right, Putin will and must do what he can to bring about peace in the Ukraine, even at the expense of some irritation to the people in the Donbass. The warmongers will try to torpedo this effort with everything they have, which is very little. Very little indeed, because by and large the armed forces of the Ukraine are beaten. Putin should understand that his true counterpart for furthering his security partnership and more between Europe and Russia sits in Paris, not in Berlin. Merkel will go along as the wind blows. She has proven this time and again. It is time for Hollande and Putin to seize the moment.
Fantastic analysis. In order for any of this to mean anything, Porokshenko would have to retreat and how can he do that and not be a dead man walking.
He will be seen as the Judas of Glory to Ukraine.
The US war party stayed on their target and is the only winner from the Minsk2, the rest including Europeans are different degree losers.
The war will continue and EU and Russia will pay for it economically and politically while Novorossiya and Ukraine will pay in human lives on top of economical and political cost.
Well China may be considered winner too but there is a lesson for it not to cross the US.
I want to be just like Viktor V. Medvedchuk when I grow up. I dont have the patience to be a Putin and am too emotional.
he was in Belarus on Wednesday for negotiations between the Ukrainian government and Russian-backed separatists waging war in eastern Ukraine. But in a sign of the inscrutable nature of Ukrainian politics, he was there not on behalf of the Russian leader or the separatists but for President Petro O. Poroshenko of Ukraine and the Ukrainian state security service.
Throughout that fall, Ukrainian Choice ran an aggressive anti-gay ad campaign warning against decayed values in the West. In a precursor to Russia’s now frequent charges of fascism against Kiev and the West, Mr. Medvedchuk described the European Union as the modern heir to Germany’s Third Reich.
“A man with such a past cannot be a public figure,” Mr. Sverstiuk said of Mr. Medvedchuk in the interview, adding: “In short, he is a sinister character. This is an evil name.”
As a member of Parliament from 1997 to 2002, he was known to express pro-European views, and had strong working relationships with officials in Poland.
Yet, he became so powerful and influential as Mr. Kuchma’s chief of staff, from 2002 to 2005, that there was a joke in Kiev political circles: Mr. Kuchma was serving as president in the Medvedchuk administration.
Some Ukrainian analysts believe there is more than a grain of truth in the gag, and that Mr. Putin’s goal is to create a Medvedchuk administration, if not in Kiev, then in Donetsk, where the Kremlin has made clear it would like to see the region granted autonomy similar to that of Chechnya in Russia.
“His reputation is very poor; nobody wants to be involved with Medvedchuk openly,” Mr. Leshchenko said. “People prefer to hide the contacts.”
Still, Mr. Leshchenko said the situation in Ukraine was so dire that Mr. Poroshenko should accept any help Mr. Medvedchuk might provide, echoing a point he made as a journalist when Mr. Medvedchuk appeared at the first talks last June.
“Medvedchuk is evil,” Mr. Leshchenko wrote in a blog post. Still, he added, “it is better to negotiate with Medvedchuk than to dig graves.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/world/europe/friend-of-putin-assumes-role-of-negotiator-in-ukrainian-conflict.html
MY HERO!!!!!
The fighters for freedom and truth seem to gain some paper legitimacy but oh, what a bitter taste in the mouth to allow all that spilled blood to be wasted as the perpetrators of evil are allowed amnesty and can walk out of the trap they self-created and take their weapons with them, for the next genocide. I hate it, for the betrayal of truth, justice and love. But what do I know? I'm no politician, militarist or Banderist. I'm not there; I just know what I read here. I hope I'm wrong; but to be true to myself, my head has to tell what my gut feels, and what I think the families of dead relatives and warriors would feel about these paper trails of murder and mayhem. Someone prove me wrong but until then, I suffer with the victims of violence.
And let me tell you something. There is no bigger scum on Earth than Europeans. During the last century, Europeans have become such whorish, disgusting people, truly worthy of contempt only. Nietzsche wrote about such possibility a hundred and fifty years ago. Nihilistic, very immoral and servile people: a blight upon the world! Anyone prostitute himself before that filth is worthy of content also. In that sense, far more worthy of respect are Americanos, and that's saying a lot. Perhaps Putin is working for City of London as well. After this episode, it's something to consider.
p.s.
Where are my yesterday's posts, censor? I noticed they are missing, and I also noticed those icons on the front page "No censorship" and "Save the Internet".
This agreement is to buy time, The USA has said they will start to train the UAF starting March. Khazaria 2.0 without Crimea is dead, surprised no mention of Crimea. 2015 is the year of blood moons, the Chabad-Lubivitchers expect Khazria 2.0 to be in place this year, they are failing everywhere, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, the Orthodox faith will get closer, happening soon with Cyprus and Greece.
This was a tango dance between EU and RF.
Read this explanation of what is at stake economically between EU and RF.
http://eng.belta.by/all_news/politics/Normandy-Four-leaders-pledge-to-use-their-influence-to-assist-fulfillment-of-Minsk-agreements_i_79517.html
Gas payments and gas for and through Ukraine is big issue.
The EU market not left out of Eurasia is an issue.
Keeping the US and NATO from dragging EU nations into war with RF is very urgent.
Ukraine is not the issue. It is merely the battlefield, just as their army is just a cannon fodder proxy.
All this other stuff is what is at stake. And it matters for RF businesses that Putin has to take care of also.
Germany and France are hurting because they can't break away from US hegemony. This was meant to keep US at bay.
Putin has them begging.
It looks weak if you want that big military push, that Russian victory. But this sticks Russia inside Ukraine's business, keeps Ukraine in Russia's sphere of influence, and stiff-arms the US once again.
No signatures on the Minsk Agreement by the leaders of nations or representatives of nations.
Only the Set of Measures signed by the Group of Three (and NAF leaders have said if ceasefire breaks down, the whole thing is over). There's a subtitled video of their press remarks afterward on FortRuss.
So the Normany Four ballroom performance is over.
This was like Porky agreeing to his own removal. The steps Ukraine must take are impossible to conceive will be achieved with Porky in power.
Rada work alone should be televised as great violent theatre. A new Constitution?
Putin delivered possible relief for gas business, relief for his left flank who want connection to EU, relief for Akhmetov, the oligarch who is losing his industrial assets every day.
The militia is under Putin's control, and they are a device for keeping Ukraine in frozen war, if necessary.
This Minsk stuff is just a means to an end.
Not a person involved in the 16 hour marathon expects it to work.
Why do it? For the above goals of the RF interest groups and the needs of the EU, specifically Germany and France. Because victory over Kiev is not yet necessary. Because RF wants to remain separated from the war. Because there is always voentorg.
Sadly, the war will go on. But it isn't Russia fighting a war. That is a huge difference. This is a civil war, a rebellion, a separatist war.
This is an unmitigated disaster. It'll just give the junta a chance to resupply, recruit, and train more Nazis. They proved themselves during the last ceasefire, didn't they? If the Novorossians fall for this, well, I think the War Nerd put it best,
But there are no sentimentalists in the Kremlin. Photos like this are useful; that’s all. Putin’s people take a more Taoist approach: “To them, men are like straw dogs, destined for sacrifice.” These deaths help to distract world attention from Crimea, keep Kyiv busy, and force it to the negotiating table in a more accommodating mood.
Let us pray that Novorussia that became rump Novorussia in the form of DPR/LPR does not end up like Republika Srpska Krajina, Kosovo and Republika Srpska! Mutilated or destroyed! Fifth column is live and active in our loved Russia! I am afraid that no spin can hide that it is a sad day today!
The Marching Song Of The Covert Battalions Lyrics
Artist: Billy Bragg
Album: The Internationale
Genre: Folk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3GQNCWQfw
Lyrics:
Here we are, seeking out the Reds
Trying to keep the communists in order
Just remember when you're sleeping in your beds
They're only two days drive from the Texas border
How can a country large as ours be scared of such a threat
Well, if they won't work for us, they're against us you can bet
They may be sovereign countries but you folks at home forget
That they all want what we've got but they don't know it yet
We're making the world safe for capitalism
Here we come with our candy and our guns
And our corporate muscle marches in behind us
For freedom's just another word for nothing left to sell
And if you want narcotics we can get you those as well
We help the multinationals when they cry out, protect us
The locals scream and shout a bit but we don't let that affect us
We're here to lend a helping hand in case they don't elect us
How dare they buy our products, yet still they don't respect us
We're making the world safe for capitalism
If you thought the army was here protecting people like yourself
I've some news for you, we're here to defend wealth
Away with nuns and bishops
The Good Lord will help those that help themselves
I've some news for you, we're here to defend wealth
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
Regards,
Carmel by the Sea
Have you seen the first result of the negociations?
"Paris could soon deliver the Mistral" http://fr.sputniknews.com/international/20150212/1014642510.html
I agree with you on who won.
If there is one good result of the truce, it is that Kiev will not have its Joan of Arc: Nadya Savchenko will be freed "soon after the medical examination and the preliminary findings of the investigation."
The investigation will show a few errors; hopefully, the prosecutor will be sent to Kolyma.
Personally I think it stinks.
The OSCE and the europeans will never be able to enforce it and the weapons pullout and the reforms will not happen (like last time).
Chocolateshenko and the Nazis will just keep stalling and stalling whilst they re-arm etc with US heavy weapons and we will do this again - with more bloodshed and death, because this is what they and their masters in Washington want.
The only way to end this is for the junta to collapse or for Kiev to be taken.
There is NO WAY the NAF should disarm until ALL Nazi + junta weapons etc are out for sure; these people CANNOT be trusted.
I am VERY VERY surprised that they agreed to this; it smells VERY bad
with headline like these the fact looks like Putin acted as a weakling and hence ruined the reputation of Russia. not to speak of losing the advantage of the novorussiana army at least to destroy the cauldron and expose the NATO mercenaries inside the cauldron for all the world to see.
putin and his army are not fighting in donbass but putin is always there to stop the victory of novorussiana rmy at the last minute-just to please anglosaxon enemies of Putin and of Russia! what a shambles are these lavrov, putina nd medvedev ! truly a treacherous to russia trio.
http://sputniknews.com/us/20150212/1018164901.html
The Russian analogue to SWIFT is supposed to go online in May. I wonder if the goal isn't to stall until then, at which point the threat of being cut off from SWIFT will be meaningless.
If correct, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, a brilliant analysis.
Still no comment from Obama on this deal. I guess he should applaud the outcome and at least respect the agreement and the process by not sending arms to Ukraine.
Yes, the behaviour of Europeans constitute the key to the implementation of this agreement. However, we don't know how the NAZIS are going to react to it. Also, we all know that Peroshenko doesn't control all the elements of the Ukraine army. Will be able to implement the ceasefire in 2 days, let alone the withdrawal of the heavy equipment for the demarcation line ?
The odds are clearly in favour of another failed opportunity, and we should know very soon.
This Minsk 2 deal give nothing to Novorussia, but give all to Poroshenko.
Thank to this deal and its ceasefire Poroshnko can save his army Debaltseve cauldrion, thousands Ukrainian soldiera, and there are rumour that there are few hundres NATO soldier too.
Without this Minsk 2 deal, they all be destroyded because cauldrion, but this deal save them, so regroup, rearm and re attack again.
Sorry, but this deal seems to be total betray of Novorussia people, and this deal save Poroshenko and hes army.
The agreement does not mention the future role and involvement of the USA and other EU members in supporting Kiev, militarily or otherwise, during the transition period. Will they continue to send military, financial and other support, overtly or covertly? Will sanctions on Russia be lifted? Too many gaps in this agreement!
How will the DPR and LPR leaders respond when Western support of Kieve continues?
How can this even be called an "agreement" if Poroshenko didn't sign it? The joke is on Russia and the NAF if they think this will be honored.
Check out this bleak but very realistic interview with Rick Rozoff of StopNato.com
https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-1000-rick-rozoff-warns-ukraine-war-is-inevitable/
WTF!! I cant beleive that Novorussia leaders sign this mins 2 deal.
This Minsk 2 deal means that Novorussia forces have to retreat their conquer areas, so NAF fighter have fighted for nothing, and this minsk 2 deal save about 8000 ukrainian soldier Debaltseve cauldrion, so they can regroup, rearm and re attack again.
Ok, lets forget Novorussia, when it seems that their leaders betrayed them.
This deal means that Poroshenko can save his army Debaltseve cauldrion, only benefit this deal is Porohshenko.
I see this deal total betray of NAF fighters, and Novorussia people.
What sense NAF fighters to fight, when they leaders then sign deal that destroy all NAF achievement in battlefield.
A ceasefire is that magical time both sides need to
reload.
Patient has cancer, ankle wrap applied for the second time.
This is my first post here and I will post only id I think I have something important to add.
There are few things I want to clear up.
First... The infamous huge explosion few days ago was nuclear event. Some people might believe otherwise but there is no conventional warhead that will leave 30 meter wide and 10 meter or more deep hole in the ground. This was done by Porky (under US guidance of course) as a trump card stating that he will not hesitate to use it if needed. It's purpose was to give an "extra" argument for him right before Minsk "negotiations". Another fact pointing to it as a nuke was the place it was detonated....far enough to do not harm civilians but close enough for everyone to se it.
Second...as I understand so called "rebels" refused to sign the treaty. From their point of view they see it as a sellout by Putin who gain few brownie points with Merkel at the cost of their blood. I can't image them pulling back while ukies stay in place. That would be equivalent of worst betrayal in the eyes of rebel fighters, rightfully so. So all pleasantries aside Putin will have a hard choice...let the Ukies win (or at least "advance") and be seen as a traitor by Russians or support rebels quietly at their current positions at the minimum while claiming otherwise. The minimum he could do is to give an ultimatum...no gas for Ukies until they negotiate wit rebels.But, as is shown in Minsk, Putin will sell rebels than support them. In the end we have to be clear that Putin genuinely wants Lugansk and Donbass as a part of future Ukraine for a simple reason that without pro Russian population he will lose influence on Ukrainian politics and therefore lose control of it.This is cynical game played on both sides and no party (maybe except rebels) have clean hands there.
Sorry, dear Saker, I have just read the "agreement" (=dictate), and I must say that this has been a crushing defeat of the Novorussians and the Russians alike.
They were apparently so awkward at the negotiations that they failed to negotiate any meaningful political settlement.
They ought to have demanded some sort of well-defined autonomy for Novorussia, generally at the level of the previously suggested federalization proposal.
Of course, the Russians do have the right to demand it, as they represent the Novorussians - and not of their own volitions, but simply because the Kievan junta refuses to negotiate with the Novorussians.
After all, this position of Russia had been sanctioned by countless of EU representatives, such as the bitch Mogherini, who had repeatedly said something to the effect that Russia held all the keys to ending the conflict, etc.
So, Russia should have as least take it at face value and confront them with their previous statements.
That said, Russia's diplomacy is as disastrous as can possibly be...
Mind you, the Kievan junta made no hard commitments, while Novorussia was opened to slow motion destruction.
Hell, the disastrous, stupid and treacherous Russians have even agreed to the first Minsk demarcation line...!!!
This is a disastrous "agreement", as it demands no concessions from the Kievan junta and - most importantly - they are, in effect, non-binding, as they contain no guarantees for Novorussians, there are no remedies for possible violations, nothing.
It is all the more disastrous because this one was initiated by EU members... because the pressure on their interests was far greater.
That it why they begged for an agreement... but Russia not only miserably failed to take an advantage of it, Russia completely wasted this opportunity to reaffirm itself as a sensible negotiating partner.
The first Minsk agreement failed and the causes of its failure must have been evident to everyone except the blindest deniers. The Kievan junta was technically in violation of many of the provisions of the agreement (while Novorussia was in violation of it only from 4th December).
The Novorussians had been betrayed and left to the mercy of the Kievan junta by Vladimir Vladimirovič Putin.
Inferring anything even remotely binding from the impression "the Europeans got involved" would be a fatal blunder.
We have already seen another such example of "European involvement" - the Kiev agreement between Ukrainian president Viktor Fedorovyč Janukovyč, Ukrainian opposition and the "involved Europeans". We know the level of that "involvement" - the following day they proclaimed it dead and firmly repudiated it.
It just makes me sick that the Russians let them pull such a stupid trick on them again (you know the saying: fool me once...).
No wonder that the Russians are treated the way they are...
Thus, having been on the offensive for several weeks, which caused them so much suffering and cost them so many lives... their lost it all in a few hours during a single night in Minsk.
Furthermore - did Russia gain anything? No, of course not! Just like with the first Minsk agreement, the EU levied sanctions on Russia. And it is similar this time as well. The sanction list will be amended and all this Minsk "agreement" achieved... was the postponement of the enlarged sanction list to next Monday!!
You know... this is so frustrating... a babbling toddler would have negotiated a better agreement!
The Russian leadership is so incredibly inept!!! It just makes you wonder how such a country without a speck of assertiveness or respect for itself can actually survive... ugh, but perhaps not for long, anyway...
The way the Russians handled this diplomatically from the very beginning could hardly be worse. Always on the retreat; not only did they provoke the West to start a war on them, but they also taught them how to wage war on Russia...!
And this time, with yet another ignominious Russian withdrawal, the appetite for more war on Russia will only grow.
And last but not least... this stupid "agreement" furnished Ukraine with more and more loans... and guess what the Kievan junta will use them for...?
Basically... the tell-tale of the true result of this "agreement" is that Waltzman, the butcher of Kiev and war criminal-in-chief, left the conference vindictive and boastfully defiant.
Very interesting the way RT.com keeps referring to Lugansk and Donetsk forces as "rebels." Implicit in this is the legitimizing of the Junta. Is Putin really against these people, or is this a good cop--bad cop drama? If Putin had discerned the true nature of NATO's intention from the outset--and they were far from unclear--as well as the patently criminal-zionist nature of the Junta individuals, he would have acted very differently, in my view. Imagine the analogous thing occurring on the Mexican border. The US would act instantaneously. I'm afraid I don't totally trust Putin. They are all globalists at bottom. Growth and development forever, along with statism and full control over the citizenry. I think the Orthodoxy is a sop for the Russian people, and it will only come into its own after the destruction of both NATO and Russia-China after the inevitable nuclear war to come.ff
No deseo la guerra ni menos que mueran civiles e inocentes, pero me parece que esto es solo para ganar tiempo (como han estado haciendo con Rusia desde siempre).
Es posible que en Debaltsevskogo haya extranjeros atrapados (puesto que la gente eslava no les importa) y por eso corrieron a negociar.
Ojalá me equivoque y Dios toque sus corazones, pero hay que estar preparados.
Muchas gracias por informar y por sus análisis tan lúcidos.
I'm doubtful the Israeli-Americans will allow their junta pets to abide by this agreement any more than they have any of the previous ones. I'm sure the Novorussians and Russians are not expecting they will either.
вот так
CC has his own take, plus a map showing the borders and the proposed zones of exclusion for heavy weaponry.
Итоги Минска (Results of Minsk)
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/2045918.html
вот так
I believe the US wants war and Poroshenko will reflect US position to the end. The real question is does Europe trump the US or not.
If the EU wants to get serious, then they should lift Russian sanctions. But they won't do that either. So what bargaining power do they have with the US?
If Greece leaves NATO, that is a much bigger deal.
Thank you Alexander, for your helpful analysis.
I offer this Kazzura video of Poroshenko saying in his own words that THIS is what the junta uses ceasefires for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3372072281&feature=iv&src_vid=cGx17tLScjw&v=dAVFhPu5fio
As someone who wrestled in High School: you don't get to call time out when you are being pinned to the mat.
My natural skepticism over any ceasefire is predicated on prior bad acts of the illegal Kiev junta.
So my question: Will the rebels turn down the heat on the cauldron and let the Uki's, mercenaries and NATO personnel escape to fight and murder another day?
Could you please comment on the likelihoods of three situations?
1) Ukraine goes bankrupt, defaults on its debts, stops paying its civil servants and perhaps the army
2) Ukraine goes into hyperinflation
3) The people of Ukraine rise up against conscription and overthrow the current government, as they have done every few years for a decade or so
Thank you.
Security literally smothers Russia female reporter at Minsk talks so that she can't ask Porky any difficult questions, European freedom of the press shown for what it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oi19yfgBN0w
Without knowing anything except what I read on The Saker's blog, it seems to me that Putin's strategy is (as I believe The Saker has explained to us) to keep dragging things out (diplomatically) so as to avoid, or at least, delay a NATO/Russia war (with all its unpredictable geostrategic consequences), even if this means more Novorussian soldiers will die (if/when the Kiev junta gets around to mounting another 'offensive' with more weapons supplied by the US -- though whether they could be used effectively without US soldiers on the ground who know how to use them is uncertain).
A note by Mike Whitney to his The Fallujah Option for East Ukraine reads:
The Novorussia Armed Forces (NAF) currently have 8,000 Ukrainian regulars surrounded in Debaltsevo, East Ukraine. This is a very big deal although the media has been (predictably) keeping the story out of the headlines.
Evacuation corridors have been opened to allow civilians to leave the area. Fighting could break out at anytime. At present, it looks like a good part of the Kiev’s Nazi army could be destroyed in one fell swoop. This is why Merkel and Hollande have taken an emergency flight to Moscow to talk with Putin. They are not interested in peace. They merely want to save their proxy army from annihilation.
I expect Putin may intervene on behalf of the Ukrainian soldiers, but I think commander Zakharchenko will resist. If he lets these troops go now, what assurance does he have that they won’t be back in a month or so with high-powered weaponry provided by our war-mongering congress and White House?
Tell me; what choice does Zakharchenko really have? If his comrades are killed in future combat because he let Kiev’s army escape, who can he blame but himself?
There are no good choices.
So should Zakharchenko ignore the Minsk 'Agreement' until such time as he has sent the Ukrainian combatants to their reward? According to the text (as posted on The Saker's blog) Zakharchenko is a signatory -- but was he present in Minsk this week when it was drawn up? Did he actually sign? Does he have any legal or moral obligation to allow those Ukrainians to live?
PS I've done the rounds of more neutral social/libertarian/political websites, where the usual zionist/neo-nazi scum have kept well away from the Ukraine threads these past few months (because of how badly their side was losing, and how badly they had lost the propaganda war). Well guess what. The worst of the zionist forum members are jumping back into the threads with GLEE, 'Praising' Putin for backing Merkel's plan, and praising the USA for using the threat of military intervention to help Putin come to the 'right' decision.
Do you comprehend this? The legion of known, ultra-zionist/ultra-Blair/ultra-neocon members of other forums rushing to congratulate Putin on signing up to Minsk II. In threads that previously were so toxic for their position, they didn't even dare try to 'troll' them.
Total victory for their side. Total loss for ours. Just as Strevkov predicted if Putin carried on listening to Starikov.
Now the cancerous sore is going to expand very quickly indeed, and all actions by Russia are going to be (correctly) portrayed as breaking the Minsk II agreement- allowing Russia to be described as a 'law-breaker'. You NEVER sign a bad agreement, because when you are forced to ignore it down the road, you become an 'oath breaker' by definition.
It's like how in 'Game of Thrones', Jaime Lannister is forever known as 'Kingslayer' and 'Oath Breaker' despite the fact that the King he killed was both very mad and very bad.
How could Putin fall for the old 'Good Cop', 'Bad Cop' routine. Well look at the history of some posters here, and how they helped sell the 'good cop/bad cop' play. Those that talked about the "bad old neo-cons" and the "wonderful" Merkel and Greek "revolution". They think you that stupid.
Now they tell you not to worry because 'oath breaker' Putin will simply pour massive amounts of arms into Ukraine when it all goes pear-shaped. Yeah, what a 'winner' Putin will be when he allows a much larger cancerous sore to develop on the key flank of Russia. The Demons in Whitehall and Washington are laughing like drains at this moment.
For four things it seems to me it is not bad at all for DPL and RPL.
1) The remoteness of his artillery will weaken the UAF in comparison with NAF wich have better infantry.
2) The control of the Russian border depends of a new constitutional process. It give time to our russian Brother.
3) The time is the side of DPL and RPL, even if IMF give 17 billions to Kiev. Not sure it will buy much time for Kiev.
And 4) Poroshenko was not happy of the agreement.
I am waiting impatiently of the analyse of The Saker. During this time still a lot of blood will flow. I hope the NAF will be successfull in reducing the pocket of Debaltsevo.
Kind regards to all.
I honestly cannot believe that allowing the UAF to escape defeat in the cauldron can be viewed as anything other than a total and unmitigated defeat.
Can you imagine what effect this will have upon the NAF fighters, as they are ordered to stand down and allow the UAF to march off under their very eyes, know that they will return again to destroy the Donbass?
I can't think of a better way to destroy the NAF. The Russians have just guaranteed that they will have to fight the war when the UAF comes back in the summer.
People keep saying Europe will do this or that, lets be streight here, Europe have never pointed to the juntas crimes and never held them accountable. What will happen is more rape/murder/kidnapping of ethnic russians by neo-nazis from the west ukraine and Europe wont even blink or accept they broke any deal, but if NAF defend there self they will scream they are the aggresor.
today is a sad sad day, i followed this from day one every day, even if the peace deal wont last they have all ready been thrown under the bus yet again, all those men/women/children murderd to regain there land and they have to retreat to minsk 1 boundry line. The details in the document are so utterly vague they could let donetsk pick the bin collection companys and say look you got some more decentralisation.
putin is a coward and a shill, i genuinly thought he was the last statesman with integrity but sadly he is just another shill
R.I.P novorossiya
What don't we know?
Just when the imperialist forces are losing, they want to 'negotiate.'
As the Novorossian Partisan Militia surge forward in heavy fighting, the United States puppet-installed Nazi regime in Kiev begs for a "ceasefire."
We assume the imperialists have offered a few sweateners for Russian President Vladimir Putin to agree to such a deal.
The 7,000-9,000 (equivalent to one Army division) of proto-fascists surrounded in the Debaltseve pocket would look very good being paraded through Donetz - as prisoners of war.
It is to be hoped that the "DEAL in Minsk" meets with the approval of the Novorossian Militia. They have made great personal sacrifices, and should be consulted on any 'Peace Deal.'
I know! Consult the warriors who are saving civilization? What? No more coffee for me.
We hope for the best.
Peter J. Antonsen - Anarchist Collective
For the Democratic Republics!
IMAGINE
"The Junta will resist them tooth and nail if only because those negotiations put in jeopardy the whole Maidan project and by their mere fact call into question the Junta's legitimacy."
This is true only so long as the Junta (present govt) regards itself as deriving legitimacy and maintenance in power from Pravi Sector and related Nazi factions.
Both citizens and oligarchs now want peace. (Oligarchs can't do business and risk all in a losing war) It may be that these two together can exert far more pressure than PS & the Nazis.
The question is how much the US is willing to push for war. One wd think their obsession w defeating Russia as an obstacle to the NWO wd cause an all-out campaign to prepare for more war. However it appears that there is now an added cost to war: a wedge between US and EU that may grow.
EU/Rus/China coalition MUST be avoided if US's drive for NWO is to succeed but it is precisely that that is in EU's interest.
What can US do to increase EU dependence on US & NATO?
http://www.alternet.org/story/112457/that_was_no_small_war_in_georgia_--_it_was_the_beginning_of_the_end_of_the_american_empire/
" the pug said...
Thank you Alexander, for your helpful analysis.
I offer this Kazzura video of Poroshenko saying in his own words that THIS is what the junta uses ceasefires for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3372072281&feature=iv&src_vid=cGx17tLScjw&v=dAVFhPu5fio"
seems like Porky is talking to save his own skin... things in Kiev must be bad for him...
Looks like Putin and Poroshenko are friends.
Putin save Poroshenko army, and Poroshenko self by this Minsk 2 agreement.
Putin has totally betrayed Novorussian people, NAF has fight and died gain more land area Donbass, and then comes Putin and makes them retreat, and Putin save Ukraine army Debaltseve by this Minsk 2 deal.
This deal means total surrender to NAF, and Putin betrayed Novorussia totally.
This a sit rep on Minsk from a site which I discovered today and know nothing about:
https://www.redanalysis.org/2015/02/12/red-team-analysis-weekly-191-minsk-probability-war/
I have to wonder what the political ramifications will be for Putin? Surely the Russian nationalists will see this as a Neville Chamberlin-like act?
This "agreement" has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. The NAF had, at great cost, moved the UAF back while isolating many thousands of UAF troops in the Debaltsevo cauldron. This was to be the "position of strength" that Putin could use to dictate a new line of demarcation and more favorable terms, right?
Unless Poroshenko is deposed before the ceasefire goes into effect, I don't see how this can end with anything but an utterly dispiriting defeat for the NAF forces, and a reaffirmation in the West that Putin can be forced to surrender on Western terms.
my dear anti.capitalista may I say would disagree on every major issue of your evaluation on the new Minsk deal.
The novorussians are losing in the short run, yes. The kremlin is winning in the medium an´long runs, yes. But the US basic strategies and main goals that make the basis of the whole mess are being eroded. Firmly and slowly but in my view irrevocably as well. Have in mind that nowadays things usually speed up
beyond intended limits.and beyond nont intended consequences.
Just after their poodle Cameron firmly announces that sanctions will remain firmly in place, the Americans contradict him:
US Blinks: Kerry Says Prepared To Roll Back Sanctions On Russia
Did Did The US just blink? Perhaps under pressure from Merkel having enough of Obama's "costs", Secretary of State John Kerry just released the following statement... " the United States is prepared to consider rolling back sanctions on Russia when the Minsk agreements of September 2014, and now this agreement, are fully implemented."
Regime is real when even twiddle dumb and twiddle dee can be sent out to fool the chess master….PCR says it all….everything else is history. So sorry big jet airliner and friends.....dust to dust ashes to ashes....
Just read John Kerry's comments regarding the Minsk2 agreement. I noticed the following:
1) He is still using the Russian Agression language;
2) He is talking about the lifting of the sanctions, however only after full implementation of the accord.
I see an opportunity for the European side to lift their sanctions much faster than the US, and make a difference. It will be interesting to see.
Well to all in this comments section, this just hit the wires. I bet this was part of the deal too!
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/uk-ukraine-crisis-imf-idUKKBN0LG0Q420150212
RIP NOVORUSSIA:
Minsk 2.0 Bound for Failure
The war in Ukraine has been witness to war crimes enmasse. Thousands of civilians have been slaughtered by the Ukraine army, and many more thousands have been maimed for life. During the first few months of the war, a deal like Minsk may have worked. After a year of the national government turning the guns of war against "its own" cities and villages the blood and destruction is far too great. Then there are the thousands of dead and wounded troops on either side. And their families. Are they supposed to submit to an agreement that allows the Ukrainian government to rule over them once more after such massive human rights abuses?
Almost as astonishing, the new Minsk deal calls for those who were responsible for these crimes against humanity to be pardoned from prosecution. An action that leaves human spirit betrayed. It defies the basic tenets of justice in the most vile way. A politically expedient hand shake that washes the blood of tens of thousands from the hands of those responsible.
A betrayal. An insult. Such an agreement can never have a long shelf life. It is doomed to failure because it ignores the human will and its need to see "justice done". Such an agreement leaves the wounds of war to fester and breeds deep routed hatred and resentment. It is not honourable and it is not practical. It is but a grand gesture, in a grand hall, that disrespects honour, sacrifice, and the human will to be free of one's oppressor. Shame on all involved.
http://rocksolidpolitics.blogspot.be/2015/02/minsk-20-bound-for-failure.html?spref=tw
Paul Craig Roberts comments on the Minsk "agreement."
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/02/12/minsk-peace-deal-farce-sellout-paul-craig-roberts/
A highly critical view:
http://redpilltimes.com/minsk-2-0-reboot-chance-peace-ignore-free-will-people-luhansk-donetsk/
I don't fully agree with it. But a pardon for all war crimes included in it?
If so... the agreement is illegal. Period.
I fear the worst but I'll settle for the half empty glass instead of Mercouris' half full glass.
This may well backfire on both Russia's and Novorussia's leaderships.
Putin is just another NWO puppet.9 months of weakness,now he will loose everything.
Hope there will be a 'patriot red maidan' against him soon.Traitor,you should resign.
And now this,soon we will have RF in NATO?
''Moscow calls to build common Euro-Atlantic security despite discontent of US.''
Russia calls on the West to discuss seriously ways of building the architecture of indivisible Euro-Atlantic security, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Thursday.
Both Ukies and Russian,are a bunch of oligarchs who could not care less for the people.
http://tass.ru/en/russia/777323
Ukraine’s president urges EU to continue putting pressure on Russia.
The Ukrainian leader accused the militias of Ukraine's self-proclaimed republics of launching an offensive in the area of Debaltsevo on Thursday.
http://tass.ru/en/world/777339
Mistral deal on hold despite new Minsk agreements — French FM
http://tass.ru/en/world/777338
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is unhappy that Ukraine’s NATO bid was not discussed during the Minsk talks in “Normandy Format”.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150212/1018185940.html#ixzz3RYmMpRre
Donbas Forces Ready to Cease Fire in Debaltseve Area Immediately
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150212/1018182760.html#ixzz3RYmaPkBF
i see others have commented cynically that the only reason this "agreement" was done now is to remove the anguish & sleepless nights the imf was having over lending (more) funds to a country at war.
Fancy that...banksters with scruples!
not bloody likely.
i expect a last, major backstabbing being set up, & i'll say it'll happen within a month, 6 weeks tops.
got to get a major offensive in before the spring thaw & mud, don'tcha know.
This agreement is a list of expectations that will never see the light of day. Washington runs the Kiev govt. and has declared that an escalation of hostilities is to proceed with lethal weaponry and U.S. forces being sent to train the Nazi forces next month. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. What is it that Putin and his administration do not perceive that the western forces of hegemony as defined by Brzezinski are out to destroy any challenger to their FULL dominance and will take no prisoners, and that they perceive Russia as a challenger. This while the Putin admin plays cat and mouse with the U.S. led NATO; serial destroyers of nations, as the people of Novorossia are suffering and dying. This fact not will not be lost on their fellow Russians in Russia, making a possible political play for the U.S proxies in Russia that Putin has sold out their brothers and sisters again with phony ceasefires and peace negotiations. Always be extra extra careful when playing with the devil is my advice for the Putin admin.Ending this sooner than later is the best option in the long run under an R2P humanitarian deployment. Cut to the chase and quit playing the fools game of we can out maneuver the opposition when you can't.
Konstantin Bodin: Bad language is usually proof of a poor vocabulary & therefore of deficient thinking.
I wd appreciate a little less ugliness in vocabulary.
Absolutely too pessimistic comments there above. Actually this "agreement" means nothings. War continues and Poroshenko is in real trouble now. I even doubt about IMF 40 billion. During my life i has seen to many these kind of promises.
I just wonder what Merkel really think about USA and Pentagon after all this staff Snowden revealed. Are Europeans doomed to be servants of Uncle Dollar Gorilla?
Dear The Saker,
The RT version:
http://rt.com/news/231667-minsk-ceasefire-deal-breakup/
Chocie boy is already back tracking on autonomy/federalisation etc. I seriously have doubts any of this is going to go ahead.......not if US/Pravy sector and co. have anything to do with it.
Rgds,
Veritas
Its a total betrayal of the NAF. I'm sure they are aware of this.,
I apologize if this has already been added to the discussion.
Another benefit to have this ceasefire, the refugees are able to go back home.
An no, I am not talking about the ones from East Ukraine, but the ones from West Ukraine, the fighting men that left the country, most seeking safe haven in Russia. The men who did not want to fight and who while in Russia would be able to see the news, find out about the actual events that have been taking place in East Ukraine.
One of the things that has been commented in the past and show in the interviews of capture soldiers (conscripts) not the Nazis, that they were unaware they were killing innocent civilians, Ukrainians. Many believed they were fighting Russians.
If 2 million men who sought refugee in Russia get to go home, could this be a game changer?
What's missing from this analysis is any mention of the Maidan and a potential Maidan 3 if any ceasefire is seriously attempted. Can the Saker shed any light on the position and strength of the Maidan factions?
I didn't like the first Minsk Protocols, smart money says I won't like this Minks 2.0 either.
Things that make you go , hmmm... Cameron & Co have been repeating like scratched records for a couple of months now that Putin must abide by the Minks Protocols or else. This are the same Minks Protocols they didn't give two hoots about back in September, then due to the Kiev's junta getting their asses handed to them by the NAF, all over sudden it became of supreme importance to abide by the Minsk Protocols. Soon after, this Minsk 2.0 was rushed in, in less than a week.
The first one didn’t hold, chances are this one won’t hold for long either. In my view, all this Minsk 2.0 does is to give the West an excuse to put more pressure and blame on Russia as soon as the new agreement falls apart, just like they did with the first one. How many times will Putin fall for the same ruse? Is he outdoing Dubya with his: “Fool me once shame on... shame on you?”
By Uncle Bob [from a previous thread]: “One other bad result to come from this charade, is as I said earlier. The MSM is now starting to say that Putin's involvement shows he controls the "pro-Russians" like the West says. And that he was lying about it. So more grist for their Russophobia. Once again we may have "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory".
Thank you. I was preparing a post along similar lines, you beat me to it. I’m witnessing the same in MSM media and comments. While Putin sees this move as proving himself to world as a man for peace, the MSM is spinning it as a tacit admission to something they've been saying all along; Russia invaded, Russia's fighting a war against Ukraine in Ukrainian soil. Following such ‘logic’ one should conclude that France and Germany also invaded Ukraine... but of course that’s not what they’re saying.
On the other hand, the Russian supporters are cheering the lack of American involvement in the talks, in reality this gives the yanks plausible deniability to their meddling, and they didn’t sign anything nor committed themselves to peace either. Russia didn’t sign the document either (and suspiciously neither did Porkchoc, according to FortRus), but that’s not how the US/EU/Nato is gonna sell it to public and they're already at it.
.
-TL2Q
Bernd, Hi. I agree w you that Hollande is the prime mover, not Merkel. There is a great deal more potential for independence in France than in Germany, which is after all an occupied land.
I wonder if you have read on the legal limitations still placed upon Germany. http://nsnbc.me/2014/09/22/will-france-germany-challenge-nato/
half the people want Putin to start nuking, the other half wants peace on earth and can see the light on the other side already.
DOH! There is no change.. Darth Vader will not rest until the last jedi is dead. And until all kneel before the emperor.
I will eat my hat if sanctions are lifted to make a difference. Many people do not realize the dire straits the world is in. The empire is dying. They will blow up the entire world first before they go off life support. I absolutely have no doubt about that. I begin to understand Putin's plan. He has done everything he can to prepare. For a long time I thought I was alone and powerless and then Putin showed up, but he seemed to be just someone with an ego problem who did not understand the situation. Well he showed that he understand the situation exactly and very well.. I think he realizes the danger.. Not just the danger of war.. far more damage can be done in other ways than open warfare. He seems to be trying a soft landing.. Like trying to pull the rug from under the other fighter and letting them fall down. Rather than body slamming him onto the stage and crashing the entire thing on all our heads. I dont know if it will work. BUT he seems to be looking for time. Seems he is already prepared. So the Empire cant destroy Russia now. The empire thinks by weakening Russia they can do the Iraqi or Libya thing again. That takes time.. But Russia has a lot more time than the Empire has left. Some people think they cant handle the pain that is coming, I got to tell them, you have no idea the pain you will suffer. Dying would be far easier.. Heck Americans would surrender if there is a world wide sanction on toilet rolls. They think they can handle nuclear strikes? lack of electricity? water? heat? instant coffee? They go off the handle if the place is out of ketchup or hot sauce. Their army bases have shopping complexes, cinemas, fast foods and the roads are just like small town America in the middle of saudi arabia or Qatar. Unreal..
What I mean is, US society will break down far quicker and easier when the going gets tough. Expecting things to slowly unwind so they wont suffer is a pipe dream.
What Putin seems to be doing is, making sure the Empire wont take everyone down with it. Does not mean we wont be collateral damage, only that the roof wont fall on our heads. That is a very difficult challenge when all of us are under the roof staying dry.. I dont see a way for the empire to survive even if Putin backs down. We dont need to be slaves, We already give all our productivity as tribute to the empire anyway. That is the entire world.. Maybe if we all tighten our belts the empire gains a little more time. Not enough to matter.. So the next step would be population reduction.. The empire would still be able to survive with a vastly lower world population. The costs would be far less.. Its another avenue we dont talk about much or think about because it is grotesque.
A direct open confrontation would benefit the empire greatly.. Europe that no good for nothing parasite sucking up vast wealth that the empire could use would be no more. No more China or Russia and hardly any population anywhere else. The perfect paradise.. There would be plenty left for the empire now that it is all theirs.
So will the empire start WW3? Of course they will.. if they see they cant twist a few arms and get it all they will do just that. I think the empire is willing to take over 50% loses and it is found to be acceptable. maybe even up to 75% and it is still a go.. Putin is trying to make sure that figure keeps climbing each day.. As long as it is over 50% the empire will hesitate. If the empire detects its survival is at stake even 75% is acceptable. So have to be careful there as well. A balance between unacceptable and there is still time.. A very tough act that would be beyond most people.
By Konstantin Bodin: “And if he, as a head of RF wanted to participate in that peace negotiations, he should have brought Novorossians representatives along. Such stupidity.”
They were there, albeit in a different room (or so-called ‘parallel talks’) mainly because Porky didn’t want to talk to them directly, I presume.
LINK> http://novorossia.today/heads-of-the-dpr-and-lpr-arrived-in-minsk/
-
By Anon [02/12/15 - 16:22]: “This Minsk 2 deal give nothing to Novorussia, but give all to Poroshenko”
To be fair, it seems the Kiev crazies are furious at Porko for agreeing to anything at all. So it seems this a lose-lose situation for all involved, except Yankland.
"If Poroshenko signs off on peace he will be immediately destroyed"
LINK> http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/if-poroshenko-signs-off-on-peace-he.html
-
By Anunnaki: “So my question: Will the rebels turn down the heat on the cauldron and let the Uki's, mercenaries and NATO personnel escape to fight and murder another day?”
I read from some sources that Debalcevo cauldron was off the negotiating table as was any mention of Crimea. I won’t vouch for those sources though, so I guess time will tell if they were right or not.
.
-TL2Q
@Imagine:
1) impossible - owing to this "agreement" Ukraine will be run from the coffers of the West;
2) irrelevant, because of the above;
3) haha... once firmly in the claws of the West, the society enters into a persistent vegetative state - a procedural "democracy" - "if voting could change anything, they would make it illegal".
Pity the IMF payments are not conditional upon w/d of Kiev's heavy armaments.
I know US has the leading control over IMF, but doesn't EU have any control at all?
Putin just betrayed Novorussia:
Russia is finished.
War criminal Porosheno in the last Minsk agreement admits he used the time to get better weapons and regroup.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=397_1423756342
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAVFhPu5fio
scott agrees---just buying some time while they set up the next FF.
if i was strelkov, i'd get one of those groucho mark disguises like they caught that "russian spy" with about 4 months ago, & skulk my way out of moscow.
he obviously hasn't heard that phrase "keep your friends close, but your enemies even closer".
Hey look!
FRI 13TH tomorrow.
Nawwww, they wouldn't be that obvious or punctual.
willyloman.wordpress.com/2015/02/12/thanks-to-obama-and-poroshenko-seems-like-peace-in-ukraine-is-doomed-from-the-start/#more-33366
Oh it had to happen sometime.
As in any conflict either:
(1) Kiev would win totally...impossible.
(2) Donbass (etc) would totally win ..impissible
(3) Peace settlement with some sort of compromise.
With (1) and (2) impossible then a peace settlement is the only option. The only question is when and how and the longer you wait the the more die that the more bitter and entrenched everyone becomes.
To get a final peace sttlement will take a heck of a lot of negotiation and time and it is very hard to do while the fighting and dieing continues.
So a reasonable ceasefire is a pre-condition for any sort of effective future settlement.
That being said France and Germany are being a bit cynical, I suspect they wouldn't be so keen for an agreement if Kiev had won and was ethnically cleansing to its heart's content.
It has been the repeated 'fact on the ground' that Kiev has been militarily smashed (again and again) that has finally brought them around despite their fondest hopes.
Their (most probable) greatest fear is that the Novarussans go on an offense, clears a land bridge to the Crimea (etc) and thus results in the total collapse of the very shaky Kiev regime, with all the attendent chaos that they will have to deal with.
Again I suspect they wouldn't lose any sleep if some sort of neo-nazi regime took over, but a total collapse into warlordism, gangs and total chaos does not suit them at all, if for no other reason but for gas supplies and the impact of debt defaults..
Anyway whatever their motivations, the fact that they are trying is a positive sign.
The Minsk Peace Deal: Farce Or Sellout? — Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/02/12/minsk-peace-deal-farce-sellout-paul-craig-roberts/
Antkapitlista: You seem to be failing at nuanced thinking. You even say that the Russians "provoked the West to start a war on them."
You're not being reasonable, and haven't learned a thing by reading the more rational thoughts of others.
Anunnaki: my understanding is that the separatists are carrying on as before, & so are the fascists, in fact, it's possibly heated up even more.
[from Blue]
At first skimming it looks like garbage to me. A Gordian knot which will be ignored and forgotten as soon as possible.
You can buy another bad map at the roadside rest station, but the road ahead remains unchanged.
Whatever the actual effect of this might be, it is all buried in subtext and unwritten understandings, but mostly it is just meaningless.
__Blue
The best laid plans of mice and men ...
result in
nuclear annhilation.
Greetings from a parallel universe.
"That it depends on what the Europeans do is in itself a good reason to doubt this process will succeed."
Perhaps the process will succeed, just not in a linear way with pre-ordained definitions of success.
The U.S. inserted itself into the negotiation via the International Monetary Fund which it controls. The IMF announced new $17 billion plan for Ukraine, over four years, two hours before the negotiations ended. That was the U.S. joker telling Poroshenko that he would get enough money to continue fighting and does not have to give up any position. Merkel and Hollande, who tired to wring more concessions out of Poroshenko, must have fumed at that news.
Nardami
What a ludicrous mash of words to try to cover the most devastating of defeats...
The Europeans were forced to go and seek for Putin, what a humiliation. In exchange for this they got:
1) Ukraine is saved from military defeat.
2) OCSE will play the referee while notoriously being partial (almost all NATO or NATO-sympatizing Countries), imagine the results.
3) NAF artillery is retreated to the middle of nowhere (I doubt they even have 50 km depth in the South), and to add humiliation, not from actual but even from September line. The Ukies won't probably even bother to move theirs, and the referee won't object.
4) The principle of Ukraina Jedina, that is, Ukraine is the only Country in the world whose borders are sacred and untouchable for all centuries is solemnly stated by Putin and the Republics (what fuck of Republics from now on? The only Republic is the one ruled by Poro and Yats!). Self determination principle is tramped underfoot.
5) The victims will be once again subjected to their torturers. Not the slightest guarantee was gained. The Ukies themselves will decide what kind of shmautonomy to grant their victims. It's easy to foresee it will be a cheat or plain nothing. And the fact that even this matter was left to the Ukies should be considered as a great success!
6) The border control will prevent any major help from Russia when "law enforcement" will begin.
7) Russia gets involved in the process from which she called herself out so often. She will be then held accountable for all the violations the Ukies and the international MSM will invent to protract sanctions and "isolation" of Russia.
Corollary: anyone who notices the above is a hurray patriot and a Putin-basher.
simultaneously, Ukraine has passed a law to shoot military deserters, they are passing a law to imprison anyone who claims that Russia is not aggressing against their country and the US and Poland are sending in military to train the Junta and the fascist militias, etc. It could not be more clear that the US, Ukraine and at least some in Europe have no intention of following through with any agreement. this is my take on it. any more informed assessment of these factors would be appreciated. pc
Snipped from the web, by Bill Holter.
It’s PEACE! Russia and Ukraine have reached another cease fire agreement (maybe their 5th?) which will begin Sunday. Let’s see if this one holds? Ukraine cannot continue hostilities without the U.S. supplying them. What will U.S. reaction to this agreement be? The U.S. was specifically not invited to these talks, when has that ever happened before? The big question in my mind is, do continue to arm them? And if we do, what will this look like to the rest of the world? To Europe? I view this agreement as one more well thought out move by Russia, how can they be called the “bad guy” after this deal? We will either have peace …or the U.S. will be seen in a very poor light by Europe and it may spur more rapid movement Eastward, we will see! Is this for real or merely more propaganda? My guess is yes, it is for real, whether it stays for real without U.S. meddling is another question.
Antikapitalista said @ 12 February, 2015 17:15
"Sorry, dear Saker, I have just read the "agreement" (=dictate), and I must say that this has been a crushing defeat of the Novorussians and the Russians alike."
That is likely how the opponents will spin it, and just as in 1962 and the early 1990's it may be opportune not to challenge this publicly to allow the contingent options of facesaving and/or additional hubris/overreach.
Some are prone to premature ejaculation and bombast, and it may be inconsiderate to preclude them enjoying such apparent satisfaction, given that audiences with opportunities, purpose and resolve would likely perceive such premature ejaculation and bombast as being most inappropriate.
As to points and straight lines, this inhibits strategic vision.
Althought not the "whole story" , perhaps the following will add to illumination.
http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/notes-on-normandy-4-meeting-in-minsk.html
Aye, it's a betrayal of Novorossian interest indeed. Kiev is seeking for a truce at the time Novorossians hold the cards, yet Putin goes to represents Novorossians there even making some deals in their name, and what is worse deals which are not in favor of Novorossian side at all. Europeans without holding any card at all have brought Ukrop side with themselves, and Putin who is making them a favor hasn't even brought elected Lughans and Donbass representatives. Probably no harm will be done by this deal but it is very important in respect of shading light there was only dark before. Now Novorossians ought to fully realize that Muscovites are not to be trusted -- they are just as Novorossian enemy as Europeans are. They are to be played and used in any and every way possible for Novorossians to prevail, for if they end up being Muscovite's chip in the game, they shall lose that what they have been fighting for. They ought to realize that in the end, they will have what they make themselves. Novorossians have sacrificed much already, and the sacrifice must not be in vain.
It seems like the Ukrop Nazis haven't been wrong regarding Muscovites after all: they truly are craven, treacherous filth. To go and whore yourself with Empire's cunt Merkel and that little French fag all the while giving them hard fought and won victories (by someone else!), is a very low thing to do. It's even worse than what Milosevic did to us Serbs (from RS and Krajina), and Milosevic was brought and paid Empire shill at the time and withoutg even 5% of the resources Russia has at her disposal. Now I cannot help to think what we Serbs could do even with just a half of resources Russia has: there would be no power on Earth that could stop us! lol 9 million of us would make this planet tremble and shiver, I tell you! But that is because we are not bound by Western approval of our actions like Russians are. Russians are so concerned what others think of them, that I think they would fell ill if they wouldn't get their approval. But what makes me wonder is why is that? You are not stupid. Perhaps you don't realize that it makes you slaves of other's (which is somehow always Europeans') thoughts. And now you know why every disease and mishap you caught over the last couple of centuries came from Europeans: it's because they see you acting like slaves, whoring yourself. And then they think they can enslave you. See, you brought misery upon yourself. But not to worry. That is exactly why we must unite. We too come from a space which is today's Russia, and it would be only natural that we at long last unite with each other. We will give you some characteristics you do not possess, and assimilating them will give you mental fortitude and some other traits which will make you extremely resilient just like those Khazars and Jews are. And then we shall show that European scum what a mortal mind can do. World would be born again. :)
All is not lost--the unconquerable will,
Study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to yield or submit!
Remember those old words well. And when they live within you, they will make no enemy ever possible to overpower you. Such is their spellpower. :)
The problem with this "bashing diplomacy" is that no matter what happens, Russia will always be held responsible by the other party... and will be bashed for whatever happens. This is no ceasefire negotiation, but merely another salvo in the propaganda war.
But after all, it is Russia's stupidity and lack of assertiveness to engage in such bad faith negotiations. They only make matters worse, as they provide gunpowder for the bad faith party and turn the other party into cannon fodder.
And, mind you, the negotiations were "difficult" because their aims were different: Russia wants a lasting peace, while the West wants only a ceasefire.
i see 1 site so far has picked up the theme that this minsk 2 was all a curtain facade to distract & hide the raging fires of a very epic financial problem ready to erupt (finally?):
BRUSSELS: Eurozone finance ministers will hold an extraordinary meeting in Brussels to discuss the stand-off over Greece's bailout on February 11, the day before an EU summit, Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem said.
The meeting will be the first chance for Greek Finance Minister Yaris Varoufakis to set out to sceptical colleagues the radical new government's demands for a reduction in Greece's debt and an end to austerity.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-06/news/58879003_1_varoufakis-greece-tsipras
the 11th of course is already history, so today 12th is this "EU Summit".
may have something to do with the irish getting right uppity lately. article is feb 10, referencing this past 11th meeting.:
irishtimes.com/news/politics/deal-on-greek-debt-will-not-benefit-ireland-say-eu-ministers-1.2097557
Calls by members of the Government for further debt concessions for Ireland in the event of a renegotiation of the Greek bailout have been dismissed by the powerful euro group of euro-zone finance ministers ahead of a key meeting in Brussels on Wednesday.
Dear The Saker and community,
Please read. Interesting analysis by Russkiy Malchik on Fort Russ:
http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/minsk-2-preliminary-analysis.html
Rgds,
Veritas
Many good points made here. Can't add a whole lot, but
@ Kat Kan
"but at least for the first time they have agreed to do it with NEGOTIATION."
I think I read in "Getting to Yes" or some such, that not only the content/goals of the negotiation or the fight counts, but the process. From thia p.o.v., any negotiation, even one that fails, establishes something, moves the ball a few inches in the right direction. This may be pollyanna-ish, but I hope not, for the sake of all who are suffering. Whenever I turn on the hot water I am grateful because I know that so many in cold, wintry Ukraine lack this very basic amenity. AMong many others.
From my Moscow colleague (I had mentioned to him that the Crimean War seems to have marked the beginning of Ukrainian nationalism):
"The Crimean War seems to lead only to very early signs of Ukrainian national awakening. The strong nationalistic movement actually began at the end of the 19 century. Of course this movement had historical grounds, but at that time it was supported and sponsored by the Austro-Hungarian Empire and, perhaps, by the British Empire. To a large degree, this was a hand-made project aimed at geopolitical goals. As a result, Ukrainian nationalists actively participated in mass murders of Russian-speaking civil people on occupied territories of Russia during the WW1. The Austrians encouraged their atrocities. As we know, the similar project was again initiated a quarter of century ago and now we reap its fruits."
Katherine
@Saker, I like your opinion on this link: http://news.antiwar.com/2015/02/11/us-army-to-train-ukrainian-soldiers-to-fight-russia/
it says US will be training UAF. Now, does this break or not break the M-2 agreement? Can the US "train" UAF without providing Nato/US weapons ? Isn't the NATO/US weapons the supposedly "red line"? if so why after just signing the agreement it can be crossed ?
---It is astounding to me that so many of you have turned your anger on the party that has saved the Donbass and her refugees lo these many months. Put your anger where it belongs-- on the criminals who've captured the US govt and are using the Ukrainian nation as a proxy army.
You are resentful that Russia does not impose militarily her will upon another country. I have two objections:
1. Don't we believe in the rule of law? How can we oppose the US's many interventions, which are always said to be because there is a "A Right To Protect"? Didn't you hear Putin at Valdai?
2. Russia isn't omnipotent. She has some serious weaknesses, especially economic, which must be addressed.
She will delay as long as possible & then choose the time and circumstances of any military intervention-- which must be well after all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted.
Some of you want a street fight, and in winning the battle will lose the war.
Putin is probably buying time for draft dodgers to get out of Dodge. Russia or bust. Everybody knows by now that the junta will continue conscripting anybody with a pulse. The smart ones will surrender and get a free pass to Russia; that's why it is important not to abuse or humiliate the prisoners. The dumb ones are poor zombies. They don't even get proper supplies. Since when are zombies entitled to fresh underwear.
"Ukraine" is no more! There is only Novorossia of 8 oblasts and "Banderastan". All land east of the Dnepr must be joined to Novorossia. Only then will it be peace!
Konstantin Bodin: You seem filled w hate for entire nations. Nor do you make much sense. Perhaps it wd be better if you somewhere else. This blog attempts higher standards, and I seriously doubt that you can inform any of us on anything.
Hollande will hand over the Mistrals, saving the billions he needs for feeding his unemployed (caused partly by sanctions). Merkel may agree to some reparation for Greece (instead of a loan) in exchange for Russia not pushing the legal issue of Germany not being legally one country, but thereby stopping Greece from breaking the euro altogether (but saving Greece from compulsory austerity because it's not a loan with conditions).
Putin won't play "if you're not with m you're against me" but the countries that help him out a bit will be the first to get their counter sanctions eased. Poland will be talked into donating a lot of apples to the starving Ukrainians. They'll make it into homebrew apple schnapps.
Kiev should be facing some unrest in the coming weeks. They'll have to deal with it themselves,even they know they can't ask (again) for outside help to pout down (yet another) revolt. Tho;ugh to have two separate revolutions in the same country at the same time takes talent, I'll grant them that.
This may be when first revolution says ahem, you need help? we have gun, will travel....
The loans of course get repudiated as odious, starting capital to rebuild with can come from seizing from the bad oligarchs. Reformed ones can prove that condition by paying their taxes and keeping their noses clean under supervision.
" Anunnaki said...
So my question: Will the rebels turn down the heat on the cauldron and let the Uki's, mercenaries and NATO personnel escape to fight and murder another day?"
Yes! That was the point they made about "before" the ceasefire comes into effect,wanting the sides to scale back fighting.It was a way to tell the NAF to not finish off the cauldron.
Uncle Bob
I'm afraid the sole purpose of the Sunday "ceasefire" - which of course will be honored in the breach rather than the observance as it was in the fall - is to rescue those 5-6,000 Ukrainian troops facing decimation in Debaltsevo.
Every time the Ukraine military faces a military disaster, suddenly "peace talks" become important. Once the crisis is resolved, it's "full speed ahead with crushing the terrorists".
It won't be any different this time. Until the junta is overthrown in Kiev, chaos will continue to reign in the Ukraine. Putin and the Novorussiyians need to realize this and take steps to speed up the process.
Craig Paul Roberts is as usual worth reading on Minsk.
*
Other news:
#Syrian rebels call on #Israel to bomb Hezbollah-Iran-Syria positions
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Syrian-rebels-call-on-Israel-to-bomb-Hezbollah-Iran-Syria-positions-390896 …
The rebs need time. They need the USA not to open the faucet for unlimited mercs and weapons. They need agreement on holding their piece of border. They need reaffirmed permission for humanitarian supplies. They need the european movers and shakers awake from their California daydream.they need two more days to cut off the head of the snake. Yep we'll take it
The situation before this meeting was unstable, and it is still unstable, though in a slightly different configuration.
But there will be no Minsk III.
The rebs need time. They need the USA not to open the faucet for unlimited mercs and weapons. They need agreement on holding their piece of border. They need reaffirmed permission for humanitarian supplies. They need the european movers and shakers awake from their California daydream.they need two more days to cut off the head of the snake. Yep we'll take it
A sociopathic narcissist fiddles as Syria, Iraq, and the Ukraine burn. Just look at Obama's white house antics today:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-12/meanwhile-inside-white-house
Even Lord O rates putin in contempt, barely worthy of 4th place (out of the medals), & this was b4 this latest sellout.
A- The eight obstacles to imperial domination
The fourth is the increase of Russian power and incidentally the provocations of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, known as North Korea, in a manner to remind that the United States still has not overcome and they can always resume the war.
feb 10
http://www.voltairenet.org/article186706.html
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/02/12/minsk-peace-deal-farce-sellout-paul-craig-roberts/
See interview with DPR and LPR PMs on Ft. Russ:
http://fortruss.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/eng-subs-dpr-lpr-prime-ministers-joint.html
Note the zinger at the very end from Zacharchenko. Porky is responsible and any failure to enforce these agreements means no more negotiation in future. Just in case you missed that.
Here is what I do not understand: How can it be possible, all this debate? And who is this Poroshenko that he thinks, "What I say goes in Ukraine, and God can go stuff Himself?" Is that what he thinks? Whether or not constitution gives it, the rights that God gives a man are not subject to fat oligarch's whim, and do not depend upon definition or interpretation from dummass US State department or its metrosexual boss, and he should be ashamed! Ashamed I tell you, and his momma should whip his behind till he cannot sit because I am fairly certain she never taught him such behaviour like this, that is KILLING people left and right! Poroshenko, do you hear you lying pig and puppet of NWO! When it comes down to it, this debate in Minsk is foolhardy arrogance that men have right to defy God. You defy God, and you get what's coming to you, and what is Poroshenko, some kind of saint that the word of God doesn't apply to? I think not! In the face of his reckless and foolish tyranny I stand up for God, and I bust the chops of this liar and murderer: repent now, repent while you still can because the end for you will come soon and much sooner than you expect!
It has been said the true meaning of equity is when both parties believe they could have done better. Very few seem to be happy with the results of the latest round. Sadly, the Quemado Institute has now given up on Novorussia.
Minsk Agreement 2.0: My Patience Has Ended. Novorossiya Leaders Prove Betrayers
https://quemadoinstitute.wordpress.com/
I must express some surprise at the number of posts claiming that this agreement is a terrible sign of weakness by Putin and a betrayal of the Novorussians. From my perspective it was an outstanding success at multiple levels.
From the Novorussian side it might at first glance appear to be a capitulation, but it is nothing of the sort. Note the following points:
1) Militarily, the LPR and DPR are in reality bogged down along the front, with no reserves left for any sort of breakthrough. Although destroying the Debaltsevo cauldron will be a tactical victory, it will cost them a large amount of their forces and materiel to complete the mopping up operation.
2) The UAF are continuing to batter Donetsk, Lugansk and other towns with continual, heavy shelling. It is not only eroding what’s left of vital infrastructure, but _killing_ countless civilians. If none of you can see that saving lives is a vital motivation for coming to terms, then I truly despair.
3) Poroshenko was _forced_ to acknowledge the legitimacy of, and negotiate with, Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky. This was a huge compromise, underlining his helplessness at the talks.
4) It gave the leaders of the DPR and LPR the opportunity to portray themselves as reasonable men, leading the way to a 'new' Ukraine. This is something that common people in many Ukrainian regions will want to hear; what with the west showing recent discontent over the 4th wave of conscription and other areas of Donbass, such as Kharkov, who will likely demand their own independence once the break-away regions show it can be done. Yes, they made a seriously major concession to the Ukrainian side by not demanding the entirety of their oblasts to be returned or the demarcation line being set to current positions... but from the perspective of other Ukrainians they are acting as the peace-makers - not the war-mongers – which will only play in their favour in coming months of Ukrainian instability.
From Merkel’s and Hollande’s perspective, it was an overt admission that they know that Putin and his inner circle will not give _any_ further. Russia has been hosting an accelerating number of military snap tests, most recently mobilising its strategic missile forces in field exercises. This is a major warning bell to serious military analysts. Atop that Russian the MIC has started spitting out a large number of planes, missiles and submarines, tactical weapons previously placed into increased production several years ago. Secondary, both France and Germany are now suffering outright insurgency from their own business interests who are suffering from sanctions, and opposition parties who are publically mocking them.
Breaking ranks with the war hawks in Washington will cost them both badly, but this meeting was a demonstration that they cannot continue being submissive to the US risking a major European war.
From Poroshenko’s side this whole endeavour has been an unmitigated disaster. One just has to look as his body language from the photos to see the night and day contrast between him and an upbeat, almost jovial Putin. He has gained nothing from this agreement save for the chance to recall his forces before they collapse from poor morale. Even worse form his perspective, is his authority in Kiev has been undermined and I cannot see how he will be able to push through certain elements in the Minsk agreement without the more nationalistic elements of the government turning on him.
(End of Part 1)
(Part 2)
From Putin's perspective he has managed to hammer home the underlying truth that Russia is not going to back down in the face of American armament. For the first time he forced a very public and widely reported split between the EU and USA. Not only that, but he has shown the world that Russia has bent over backwards to forge a peace deal, to the extent that Kerry has stated that sanctions will be reversed if the accord holds (not that I expect the US to actually follow through with that promise). But the main point is that the unchallenged propaganda line of Russian aggression can no longer be supported, at least in European media.
Now do I personally think that the ceasefire will hold? No, I cannot see the Ukrainian nationalist units sticking to the deal, assuming they are even given orders to do so. Nor can I see Kiev upholding the requirements for some sort of DPR and LPR pseudo independence. I think it will come apart at the seams pretty quickly.
BUT
As for as I can see, Putin has staged this as a win-win situation whether the peace holds or not.
Providing the Novorussians themselves are not caught breaking the ceasefire and make some attempt to actually withdraw their heavy weapons from the demarcation zone, the first incidence of Donetsk or Lugansk being shelled will give Russia carte blanche to show that this is a war crime (now that MSM are finally starting to report the truth about the shelling) and finally give open military support. In fact I’d be surprised if this was not a candidly stated ‘understanding’ given by Putin to Merkel and Hollande at the meeting, especially if it were tracked back to deliberate American agitation.
If on the other hand a lasting truce is established, then it is also a win for the LPR and DPR as it gives them time to reorganise their military, and more importantly, begin rebuilding the terrible damage inflicted upon them. In addition the current Kiev government is likely to either be overthrown via a coup by the disgusted ultranationalists – in which case Ukraine will self-destruct leaving the Donbass as an island of relative stability – or a more moderate coalition will form, permitting the country to universally federalise or something similar. Either way opens long term strategic possibilities for Russia and prevents Ukraine from becoming a foothold for NATO.
What everyone needs to remember is that however Kiev falls in the end, the leaders of the DPR and LPR are going to need to win the hearts and minds of millions of disgruntled Ukrainians. Acting like vengeful psychopaths, burning a path to the capital and slaughtering unwilling draftees, is not going to ensure the long-term security of their republics. Showing diplomacy, common sense, and above all compassion is what will win them independence in the end – not matter how much we would all like to see the current regime punished for their atrocities.
Brad Cabana retweeted
Marcel Sardo @marcelsardo · 2h 2 hours ago
Remember those British SAXON Vehicles delivered to Ukraine?
One is already on Sale on the Internet…
@ArmedResearch
A bit of much needed laughter for All:
"The information war for Ukraine" - Satirical German program "Die Anstalt" (Eng Subs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSOfQ7tgTLg&app=desktop
Regards,
Carmel by the Sea
Another, wider, take on the Minsk talks from Fort Russ.
http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/02/notes-on-normandy-4-meeting-in-minsk.html
Merkel does not believe that Minsk 2.0 will solve the conflict.
http://www.interfax.ru/world/423666
Military Studies @ArmedResearch · 13h 13 hours ago
#Ukraine's Rada approved a bill to temporarily strip a number of #Russia's journalists working in Ukraine of their credentials.
via @NSDC_ua
"The last speech of Stalin - October 14, 1952"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOVF2fRaO6A
More relevant than ever.
Novorussians resist! Ukrainians arise ! All unite against capitalist exploitation and their fascist dogs prey. Defend yourselves! All together let down the fascist junta that has sold your country to foreign powers regardless of whether the country is destroyed and its working population decimated and mutilated. Claim your legitimate rights, without intermediaries with spurious interests.
It is better to die standing than live on your knees!
Excellent article:
The US should keep out of the Ukraine conflict"--EU Parliament President Martin Schulz
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-us-should-keep-out-of-ukraine.html
Carmel by the Sea
ric Zuesse, 11 Feb. 2015
U.S. President Barack Obama’s just-issued National Security Strategy 2015 uses the term “aggression” precisely 18 times, all but one of which are either explicitly, or else possibly, referring to Russia, as allegedly doing the alleged “aggression” — never the U.S., and on only one occasion is he identifying North Korea with that term of opprobrium. Presumably, he thinks that Russia is by far the most “aggressive” country.
one o'clock in the afternoon and 137 comments already.
Thanks alien tech for the info about Medvechuk...nice photo of him too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/world/europe/friend-of-putin-assumes-role-of-negotiator-in-ukrainian-conflict.html
Konstantin bodin
well, Mr Bodin, if it truly is, as you say, that your comments are being moderated...then there's a reason for that.
Perhaps you are too hate-filled,
Spewing where you did not sow ?
and
Raging where you did not reap? ?
As soon as the fire heats up, all the commenters come from other sites, to see what the 'real deal' is on
saker's site, on the minsk...many from PCR's group,.
Personally I don't see why the EU beauracraps think they have a say ,,
if it wasn't so serious, it would be a joke.,
Penelope Hi
Thank you for pointing out Christof Lehman's article on nsnbc international. Even though I stand by my words that freedom from US suppression in Western Europe can only come from France, I tend to disagree with Lehman's analysis. I studied the subject of German sovereignty in depth. I came to a rather different conclusion than Lehman. The fact that Lehman pretends in his article that former French Foreign Secretary Dumas has claimed such a theory or is corroborating Lehman's theory, does not give it more credibility. On the contrary. I needed to read it twice to understand, that Dumas had nothing to do with this statement. That is bad journalism by Lehmann! I do not believe that Germany is not a sovereign Nation. However, German politicians are conditioned to be the US's poodle. Remember Churchill who apparently said about Germans: they either lick your boots or they are at your throat. I assume he meant German politicians, because those are the only Germans he knew(?). I believe nothing has changed with German politicians. At the moment they are in a "prolonged bootlicking" phase.
What lack of faith in God some of you have. For shame!
What lack of trust in the greatest statesman of the entire world-Putin.
Take heart!Putin knows exactly what he is doing.He knows things we don't.
Take heart!Don't crumble now. It's what the Zionists want.
"And they came to Him and woke Him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing!" He said to them, "Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm. The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?
---Matthew 8:27
Regards,
Carmel by the Sea
It's almost fun [if it wasn't for the many dead civilians] to see this many laptop commandos debate how this conflict has to be fought.
Putin went the obamacare route - give up the farm to make a deal.. what a pathetic agreement that will likely fail.
I guess if there's a bright side it's that it will maybe stop future bloodshed if it holds..
The Ukrainians are idiots if they don't dump the Kiev losers out of power though.. the NR forces are far superior and should run the armed forces of the country..
Ukraine should elect Zacharchenko because he's the only one that has both the political capital and a desire to leverage Ukraine's resources
Putin's responsibility as President of Russia is to protect Russia. He is certainly not a fool, and it was surely obvious to him that the Minsk 2 'Agreement' has no chance of being fulfilled. As I said above, he is playing for time, even if this means more pain for Novorussia.
I have to agree completely with Alien Tech's comment (12 February, 2015 20:01) where he says "The empire is dying. They will blow up the entire world first before they go off life support. ... What Putin seems to be doing is, making sure the Empire wont take everyone down with it. ...
So will the empire start WW3? Of course they will."
Most of the comments above, and those of very intelligent people such as PCR, are based on reason. But when faced with Evil, reason is of little help. A lot of people are reluctant to acknowledge Evil even when they see it, and have long seen it. We have now passed the point where rationality is any guide to what might, should or will happen.
I suspect that Putin knows that full-on nuclear war between Russia/China and US/NATO/Europe is coming, since it is the Empire's only chance of survival, given the rise of Russia, China and the many other countries which now loathe it. What he is trying to do is to delay the onset of this so as to maximize the probability of the defeat of the Empire and the survival of some part of the human species able to live with some freedom and dignity and not as slaves to a fascist global dictatorship.
Hard times are a-comin' boys, hard times, like you can't even imagine.
I tend to think that the situation on the ground allows us to be optimistic that this agreement will stand.
In his brief remarks posted on RT, Putin made mention of the conflicting claims about the encirclement of a large body of troops, that this was something needing to be verified. I think this is the bargaining chip that will force the regime to fulfill its part of the agreement - for if indeed the encirclement exists, the east Ukrainians have the upper hand.
Something has silenced the US. Something has forced them to make the statement about lifting sanctions. It's not the goodness of their hearts. They have been blocked from making further aggressive statements - could there be men and equipment within that encirclement in effect being held hostage? Whatever it is, the leverage has shifted noticeably. As it did over Syria.
I don't see that Putin has 'sold out' the Donbass at all. There are huge concessions to the needs of the area within the agreement. There are huge requirements for the government of Ukraine to act like a government of all the people. Maybe they can't do it. But just maybe they are at a point where now somebody other than US wannaberiches will have to step in and 'help' run things - actual humanitarians!
How great would that be?!
Bernd, thanks for responding. I agree absolutely that France is our only hope of reversing EU attitudes towards Russia-- unless a lot of the smaller countries gang up (unlikely).
In my rush I did not give you very authoritative sources for the German legal conundrum.
Please take a look at http://www.rense.com/general69/germany.htm
Also:
(i) Two days prior to the enactment of the German constitution on 23 May 1949, a Secret Treaty (Geheimer Staatsvertrag) was signed, which gave complete Allied control over electronic and print media, film, culture and education until the year 2099.
As a result thereof, there are still 100,000 occupation troops in Germany; after 66 years there still has been no peace treaty concluded between Germany and the Victorious Allied Powers; and all of Germany’s gold reserves are held in the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank of New York, in which the Rothschilds have a 57% shareholding.
This treaty has been confirmed by Major-General Gerd-Helmut Komossa, former head of German Military Intelligence in his book “Die Deutsche Karte” (The German Card).
I don't excuse Germany's officials for not opposing sanctions, for instance, but only point out the legal difficulty that has made them loathe to insist on the return of their gold, etc.
Regards
Juliana, I have the same suspicion about Debaltsevo. Wd be great if the cauldron's occupants cd be held until the equipment has been withdrawn.
Aristide, what you say is very sensible. I only doubt that news of what has transpired will ever be heard by the Ukrainians. They see to be living under censorship.
Pity that an agreement for rapprochement between warring sides doesn't include a prohibition on broadcasting censorship. Such censorship is really at the heart of the average Ukrainian's willingness to fight-- or perhaps, even his tolerance for the regime in Kiev.
@Juliana
there's been a changed for 8 or 10 days now. All the media has calmed down a bit. Separatists, not rebels. Sometimes the pro-Russian omitted. Sometimes no mention of Crimea Annexation in the "history" paragraph. A few local colour stories quite sympathetic, with no fake menacing rebel in it.
I can't tell if they're just getting sick of, or waking up, or if they've been told to softpedal a bit. Which would be leading up to official policy backing down, too. They can't change overnight, so need to back off slowly. There still is the official hate mongering but not as hard, not 5 times a day. Maybe it's just had its day, USA still intends to push Russia but over something different.
"Anonymous said...
Did Did The US just blink? Perhaps under pressure from Merkel having enough of Obama's "costs", Secretary of State John Kerry just released the following statement... " the United States is prepared to consider rolling back sanctions on Russia when the Minsk agreements of September 2014, and now this agreement, are fully implemented."
No! That is just bs for Russia.The "key" to that statement is "consider rolling back sanctions on Russia when the Minsk agreements of September 2014, and now this agreement, are fully implemented." They won't even be near to being fully implemented until the end of 2015,if at all.So that means almost a year at best away.Its just another trick.
Uncle Bob
I think this is the most informative post:
nardami said...
The U.S. inserted itself into the negotiation via the International Monetary Fund which it controls. The IMF announced new $17 billion plan for Ukraine, over four years, two hours before the negotiations ended. That was the U.S. joker telling Poroshenko that he would get enough money to continue fighting and does not have to give up any position. Merkel and Hollande, who tired to wring more concessions out of Poroshenko, must have fumed at that news.
Someone needs to make a list of things that likely would not have happened on other fronts had the Russians gone into Novorussia.
I’ll start:
No huge deals with China.
No fracturing of the EU.
No BRIC’s development bank.
….
"the pug said...
Other news:
#Syrian rebels call on #Israel to bomb Hezbollah-Iran-Syria positions
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Syrian-rebels-call-on-Israel-to-bomb-Hezbollah-Iran-Syria-positions-390896 …"
Interesting! The Sunni Muslim rebels call on the Jewish State that oppresses Muslims to bomb another Muslim State.I think the Muslim World can now see the Rebels as what they are "fake" Muslims working for the Empire.
Uncle Bob
Secretary of State John Kerry just released the following statement... " the United States is prepared to consider rolling back sanctions on Russia when the Minsk agreements of September 2014, and now this agreement, are fully implemented."
John Kerry is an idiot (among other things).
The new agreement superseded the old one, There is no question of BOTH being implemented. In fact in some things they are contradictory.
Still, at least he's tried. They actually said they might consider rolling back. And this after about 10 days of MSM backing off, almost sympathetic sometimes, not snarling so much as the rebels. I think they saw they've gone too heavy, people were sick of it. Unlike most other victims, Russia was saying very loudly that YS was attacking it, and why.
So now they've soft-pedalled and they're planning some other way, some backdoor way, to get at the poor Bear. I can't think how. Ukraine they are losing interest in,because it is turning out too expensive.
Russia needs to return Crimea and stop making the Donbas suffer.
Until they do, and pay reparations, they should suffer a full embargo. Bankrupt the war chest, cripple the banking system, let China take part of Siberia.
What a shame that Russia, which could be a great country, is run by a midget and his band of thieves.
Alien Tech said... We dont need to be slaves
But we are.. already.. You just don't know it yet. And dont believe me, believe Andrew P. Napolitano, a former judge of the Superior Court of New Jersey.
Operation choke point made sure those who resist will not be able to survive except as third world subsistent farmers with nothing more than potatoes, no more iphones for you.
During his presidency, Congress enacted the Patriot Act. This legislation permits federal agents to write their own search warrants when those warrants are served on custodians of records – like doctors, lawyers, telecoms, computer servers, banks and even the Post Office.
This is not an academic argument. If our rights come from within us, the government cannot take them away, whether by executive fiat, popular legislation or judicial ruling, unless we individually have waived them. If our rights come from the government, then they are not rights, but permission slips.
Snowden went on to reveal that the NSA, pursuant to President Obama’s orders and the authorization of these judges meeting in secret (so secret that the judges themselves are not permitted to keep records of their own rulings), was actually capturing and storing the content of all emails, text messages, telephone calls, utility and credit card bills, and bank statements of everyone in America. They did this without a search warrant based on probable cause – a very high level of individualized suspicion – as required by the Constitution.
These judges actually did the unthinkable: They issued what are known as general warrants. General warrants were used against the colonists by the British and are expressly prohibited by the Fourth Amendment. They permit the bearer to search wherever he wishes and seize whatever he finds. That’s what the NSA does to all of us today.
In a little-noted speech at Washington and Lee Law School, Gen. Michael Hayden, the former director of both the CIA and the NSA, told us. In a remarkable public confession, he revealed that somehow he received from some source he did not name the authority to reinterpret the Fourth Amendment’s protection of privacy so as to obliterate it. He argued that the line between privacy and unbridled government surveillance is a flexible and movable one, and that he – as the head of the NSA – could move it.
This is an astounding audacity by a former high-ranking government official who swore numerous times to uphold the Constitution. He has claimed powers for himself that are nowhere in the Constitution or federal statues, powers that no president or Congress has claimed, powers that no Supreme Court decision has articulated, powers that are antithetical to the plain meaning and supremacy of the Constitution, powers that any non-secret judge anywhere would deny him.
If the terms and meaning of the Constitution could be changed by the secret whims of those in the executive branch into whose hands they have been reposed for safekeeping, of what value are they? No value. In such a world, our Constitution has become a worthless piece of paper.
http://original.antiwar.com/andrew-p-napolitano/2015/02/11/a-worthless-piece-of-paper/
Look, Penelopa dear, I don't give a shit what you would like to see from me. I don't live to satisfy you! As for being censored, like I said, it goes against very nature and virtues this page claims to instils. It not just dishonesty, it's lying too.
Paul Craig Roberts sees this as a total sell-out of the
Donbas by Putin, with just one (weak) proviso:
"Perhaps Putin’s strategy is to give away every advantage in the expectation that the deal will fail, and the Russian government can say “we gave away the store and the deal still failed.”
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/02/12/minsk-peace-deal-farce-sellout-paul-craig-roberts/
c'mon people, look back at ex-Yugoslavia civil war, it ALL happened already....cease fire, truce, all of that is just to give room to fascists to consolidate and strenghten..war is just begining...
It's unfortunate that Mercouris' analysis has been trolled by so many web sayanim here. It's like reading the Jews and Catholics at the Guardian zionazi club. Intelligent comment drowned out by duplicitous zionazi spam. I would guess 80-90% of the comments on this thread are nothing but zionazi originated toss.
вот так
Pnelope,
Thank you once again. Here is not the place to discuss this "Germany only" matter. It is boring for most readers here. Let it be said that I studied the matter carefuly. I am aware of all the sources you mentioned. However, I have good reasons (legal reasons) to believe, none of their arguments stick. If you really want to really discuss this, contact me....
Excellent agreement for Novorussia and Russia, the junta is pissed off and the banderastanis already call the Minsk agreement 'treason' (pretty good indication it's very favourable for us). Let's see if the junta will torpedo it...
"Anonymous said...
c'mon people, look back at ex-Yugoslavia civil war, it ALL happened already....cease fire, truce, all of that is just to give room to fascists to consolidate and strenghten..war is just begining..."
Stupid comparison, since Yugoslavia was a completely different case. Serbs were on their own against all of NATO and we had more than two sides to the conflict.
In Donbass there is direct Russian support and a common border - that's a completely different situation.
How many EU-leaders have got idea that so called west is doomed to loose its (USA) world dominance?
Hardly not many. But that's the world of late 2020's we are marching now.
[from Blue]
Saw an interesting quote in
http://portside.org/2015-02-12/how-little-guys-beat-monopolists-net-neutrality
"As Douglas Adams, author of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, wrote, "The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks." And that integrity may be what makes the impossible possible."
The bottom line is that regardless of Putin's, or others, tactics, strategy, or policial, etc. games or manipulations, the people of Novorossia have voted to be independent, and nothing less will be either satisfying, morally correct, or just.
This will not go away. The truth will remain the truth.
Novorossians are awake and aware -- not sheep -- and they will not forget what has happened. They may eventually work out some arrangement with West Ukraine and the the Ukrainian people, but it will be on their terms and, and just, ethical, and moral. I hope Putin realizes this or the struggle will never end.
__Blue
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